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Adrian Njie
Adrian is very well travelled. He was born in Beverley, East Yorkshire to Gambian and Sierra Leonean parents but spent his formative years growing up among different nationalities in Gambia as his father was the government’s first Chief Justice. He talks about how the ties and friendships he established nearly forty years ago still allows him to feel equally at home in both places and yet he welcomes the opportunity to travel as a way of providing him with a broader view of other people.
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Transcription: Adrian Njie Interview
Interview with Adrian Njie
Interviewer: Jerome Whittingham
Date: 9 November 2016
JW: So first and foremost, can you introduce yourself? Tell us who you are so that the people that are listening in know who you are.
AN: My name is Adrian Njie
JW: And what's your connection then with Africa?
AN: My parents are from Africa, both my mum and dad. Well I still class myself as an African because even though I was born here in the UK, but I went back to live in The Gambia when I was a year old.
JW: So, are you going to tell me about how your parents met?
AN: Right, OK, yeah. My dad obviously was a student here at the university, reading law. And my mum was a student, but in Dewsbury. But there was a Gambian lady who was also doing nursing in Grims...in Dewsbury, but she knew my dad...in Gambia. So she's come to Hull. And that's how my mum met my dad. They met here and then they got married in Hull, down Bricknell - the Methodist church there in sixty what year? I can't remember. I've got photographs of the wedding. And they used to live down St George's Road in the 60s. And that's when, obviously when I was born here. I think my mum had us, she used to be a midwife at Hedon Road Hospital, but she had us all at Beverley, Beverley Westwood Hospital. Then I was, I was the last to be born. So I was born in 1964, went back to Gambia in '65. But they met here and my mum's still living nowadays. My mum would ring me and she'll say to me, "Can you go to this shop on Hessle Road?" And I'll think, "Mum, that shop doesn't exist anymore!" Because they used to live down St George's Road, so all back in the 60s they used to do all their shopping up there. She'll say "Oh, I remember we used to go get pigs' trotters and all this stuff from here and fish, kippers" Oh she loves fish, she loves kippers! Sometimes, even when I'm going home, I'll take kippers for my mum. Oh yeah, kippers and mackerel and all that stuff, I'll take it. You know the ones in the cellophane things? Oh she loves that! The things she asks me for, you know what African parents are like! Honest to God she asks me for all sorts! "Go get me this from this shop on Hessle Road" - "Mum, that shop doesn't exist anymore, that was in 1964, '63." But she had some good times and like I said, they got married here in Hull. They had some really good times, we were all born here, so.
JW: Now that's an interesting story then that you were born in the UK and actually most of your childhood and formative years was back in The Gambia?
AN: That's right, yeah!
JW: So tell me something about your earliest memories then of being in The Gambia.
AN: Right, okay, obviously - we went back to The Gambia in sixty five. Obviously I did all my schooling in The Gambia, went to nursery, primary school, senior school. And I still class Gambia as home because I was brought up there. As I said, most of my childhood was in the Gambia. So...
JW: So, what was school life like?
AN: Fantastic! Obviously I went to a nursery school, then I went to a primary school, which was a Catholic school, because we're Catholics. And I remember my primary school days, very strict, very, very strict, primary school. And senior school also, that was a Catholic school, very strict and so it was a massive culture shock when I came over here - because of the way kids are brought up in The Gambia, or in Africa in general, they are brought up to respect people, so...
Right. We lived in an area called Fajara, which is - it's not in the capital. And at the time when we moved to The Gambia the Fajara area was all bush. Could have counted how many houses were there, because it was an area where no one had decided to go live there, because it was just not jungle, but just bush. And I remember there was one house there, even at my age, at five, I remember just seeing one house where we were supposed to be living. And there were a few other properties dotted around, but we lived in the government's quarter because my dad... Well when my dad went back to Gambia, really he was a barrister here, so when he went back there he went back because he was appointed the job over there. So we lived in the government quarters. Which is, I think, then in the 60s, late 60s, early 70s, most of the residents, they were all colonial people, Brits. But obviously my dad being appointed that job over there as - Chief Justice, he was given one of those quarters 'til we had our house built. So I remember all of that, I remember our house being built. I remember, just had a really good life. I remember that, I do remember most of the things.
JW: Would you say it sort of felt colonial then, even then?
AN: Not really, no, no, no. We had lots of Brits there, because, like I said, obviously Gambia gained independence from Britain, we had loads of Brits there but - it didn't feel that way at all. Maybe earlier days before we gained independence, it could have been like that, but obviously I don't know about that. But it didn't feel very colonial then.
JW: So - as a young child who were you surrounded with? Friends and...
AN: Friends, most, friends. If I can remember, most of my friends around there were all...
JW: What I'm thinking is that it doesn't sound like a very big community.
AN: No, it was tiny then! I mean I remember where we lived there used to be a club, a golf club, and that's where my dad used to live, just near the… and the golf club, it was mostly the expatriates who were members of the golf club. They had golf clubs there, they used to play tennis, they used to play snooker. I remember my dad was a brilliant snooker player, or played snooker. So most of the kids there were all expatriates. Those kids were in The Gambia, they were my friends around that area, because at that age those were the friends I had until I started going to nursery and started meeting other Gambian kids, but they were mostly - expatriates' kids. And we had a lot of Lebanese in The Gambia then. And they were all the people who were living around that area if I can recall.
JW: So what did you shine at, at school?
AN: I was very sporty. I did okay academic-wise, but I was very sporty. I was involved in most of the I played football for my school. I played table tennis for the school. I was an athlete. I just did everything sporty, but I did academic-wise I did okay. But I had to push myself on the academic side.
JW: When you began to think of your future - did you set yourself any goals? What did you want to be?
AN: When I was younger I always wanted to be a lawyer, because my dad was a barrister. We, my dad, obviously I lost my dad when I was five. So me, me not having that father figure behind me, obviously I did something else. But I always wanted to be a lawyer because I remember my dad wearing his wig and things like that and you think, "Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind being like that!" Because I remember my childhood, obviously when my dad was - made Chief Justice of The Gambia, I remember we had a really good life, I remember we had a driver, I remember we had guards on our gates. I remember that. So that was the life I knew. Obviously I thought I wouldn't mind that sort of lifestyle! I thought, "Oh I want to be a lawyer." That's always what I aimed for, but obviously like I say, I lost my father at the age of five. So they do push their kids, don't they? They all want their kids to be lawyers, or engineers, or accountants, or but obviously I went the other way. I was pushed, but - she just thought "Whatever you want to do, you do it as long as you do it to your best ability." So, but I knew if my dad was alive I probably would have been a lawyer. I'd have been pushed to do that, to read law.
JW: Do you come from a big family?
AN: My dad had four brothers. Yeah, Gambia, we've got really extended families. Even though my dad's brothers were his blood brothers, same father and mother, but we had loads of other, what do you call them? Extended family. - Like my surname, the Njie surname - I'd say about 70% of us are related. And I've even got, even though I'm a Catholic or Christian, I've even got family who are Muslims. And that's, I don't know how that happened in Africa, but we've got massive extended families.
JW: What's the population of The Gambia?
AN: Ah, it's changed so much! Obviously I've not kept in touch with it, but since they had all that fighting in Sierra Leone and Liberia, we've got lots of - refugees in The Gambia. So I'm just, I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the population is. But Gambia is such a small place; it's such a small place.
JW: So tell me about the journey from The Gambia to the UK. How did that come about?
AN: Right, African parents want the best for their kids and most kids in The Gambia, as soon as you finish high school, Back in the 80s we didn't have any universities in The Gambia. So once you finished - senior school, if you did your O-levels then A-levels you had to go to either Sierra Leone, or other African countries. Sierra Leone was very popular; a lot of Gambians went to university there. But most Gambians who studied, because you'll find out, most of the - professional Africans or Gambians, most of them studied here in the UK. And the only place they sent their kids was back to the UK. And that's why I came back here. But obviously, we, I had an uncle who lived in Hull. So after my O-levels, because at the time I did O-levels, now they do GCSEs now don't they? At the time I did my O-levels, so as soon as I finished my O-levels I came over here. I stayed with my uncle in Bilton. I went to school in Bilton Grange.
JW: So you'd be 14 years old?
AN: No, no, no, I was 16. School in The Gambia is different to this place. I know here I remember being in my class in Gambia and there must have been kids who were like - when I was in year 1 at 11/12, there must have been kids who were like 17, because of the way people are brought up over there. And I think throughout high school I was always one of the youngest in my class. By the time I finished my O-levels in '82... They even kept me back one year because I was too young, I was too young. And that's what, sometimes they do that in Africa, if you're too young they'll keep you back to say - "No, you're not gonna go!" So I finished my O-levels at 17, 16 or 17. Then I came over here, and then obviously I was late to start college, because I was going to go to Hull College of Further Education. So I ended up going to school in Bilton Grange.
JW: Let’s talk about that, that moment that you got off the plane now you sort of coming home in many ways, coming back to the UK.
AN: Oh year, I mean but whilst, I lived in the Gambia, we use to come to England on holidays in the summer, stayed in London because I had family in London, I had an auntie who lived in Golders Green and things like that so we used to come to England quite a bit but I never used to venture up north to Hull. And I remember arriving at Gatwick obviously stayed with my auntie down in London and 2 days later I travelled up. I remember coming on the train and as we were approaching Goole and Hull I thought “Bloody Hell”. You know, all the old buildings you see and that’s my goodness me I wasn’t used to that. So it was a culture shock then.
When I came over here and we had to go, my uncle lived in like I said Bilton, but we went through Bilton Grange and that was a culture shock when I saw the houses. Even though yes in London they had a lot of – terrace houses but it was slightly different, we used to live with aunties and apartments so I didn’t see all this terrace houses that you see when you come in through St George’s Road and things like that. That was a culture shock and stayed with my uncle in Bilton, went to Bilton Grange School for a year. That was a massive culture shock, also going to school at Bilton Grange because the school I went to in Gambia being primary and senior school – very strict catholic school, we had to wear uniforms. I remember even at senior school I had to wear shorts, socks right up to there. Proper uniforms and to go to Bilton Grange where you just wore whatever you wanted. It thought all my Christmases had come at once.
And I met so many nice people there. Even though it’s sort of a deprived area but, and some of the kids I don’t think that some of them had ever spoken to a Black person before. Because I remember I was in the sixth form. I remember coming out for assembly the first day in assembly and I walked out and everyone just looked at me like I was the only Black person in the school. I was the only Black guy in the school and everyone just looked at me like that but they were some of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Nicest people. Lunchtime I remember I used to have people surrounding me, just wanting to know about Africa. I remember I used to tell them all sorts of stories. About living in trees and wearing grass skirts. I remember and I still see some of them now. I still see, but I had such a good time. They were some of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Didn’t come across any racism or anything like that.
Nicest people even the teachers a lot of them because I remember coming across and bringing some of my exam papers. I remember my English Language teacher here looking at our O’level exam papers thinking how the hell do you guys pass this because our standards over there were so high standards you know. Because over there we taught grammar you know we used to be, at school overt there if you speak your language and you were heard speaking your language you got detention for that because they just encouraged us to speak English and write English properly. So when I came I met some nice people at school. I was there for a year then went to college. Did Business and Finance and from there just started working.
JW: Were there any differences in college then or was that more multicultural?
AN: Yes obviously when I went to Hull College there were more, mind you there weren’t many Blacks there. There were a few and I made a few friends there but again that was more of how can I explain that – feel more at home. Because you met a few more different people, you know. Yeah so it was nice, it was nice. Because I was there for three years. Because did a one year course then I did a two year course then obviously I applied for jobs and most of the banks. But my first job was working in Customs and Excise. I was a Customs Officer for four years then because I did Business and Finance then applied to the banks and I was spoilt for choice. I think I got three job offers.
JW: has any of the African culture – sort of travelled with you?
AN: I’ve still got. Oh yeah definitely, big part of me.
JW: Give me some examples.
AN: - When you say some examples what do you mean?
JW: Well was there African foods, arts…
AN: - Oh yeah. Goodness me. Even my wife cooks a lot of African food even though my wife is white and British. She cooks all African food and there’s a lot of Gambians in Hull now. Quite a lot of Gambians in Hull and there’s a lot of African restaurants in Hull. Like a friend of mine has just opened up one recently down Spring Bank called Jollof which is my tribe, I’m from the Jollof tribe – but a lot of other West African countries like Sierra Leone, Ghana, Nigeria. It’s this Jollof rice. Have you heard of Jollof rice? They all claim it’s theirs but it’s a Gambian dish. It’s a Gambian dish and that’s one thing. So if any of the Africans are going to be listening or West Africans are listening to this, Jollof rice is from the Gambia. And it’s from the Gambia and Senegal. And that’s our tribe, that’s my tribe. I’m from the Wolof tribe.
JW: I’m thinking that’s probably the most contentious thing we’ve, we’ve maybe recorded.
AN: Yes.
JW: In the whole of the project.
AN: Oh definitely. Nigeria claims that it’s theirs. Ghanaians claim it’s theirs. Sierra Leon claims it’s theirs but the Jollof rice comes from the Gambia and Senegal.
JW: We’re going to have the rice dish wars then springing up.
AN: Oh yeah, definitely.
JW: So tell me about life in Hull then, adult life in Hull. What do you enjoy doing?
AN: What do I enjoy doing in Hull?
JW: What do you get about to?
AN: Well, we go out quite a lot my wife and I. And obviously I’ve got kids. I’ve got a family. I’ve got three kids but they’re all grown up now and now I think growing up in Hull, working during the week, weekends was just party time. We used to just got out all the time, all the time but then when you do get married, when you do get married things change don’t they. You’ve got your family. You have to bring your family up and things like that. So we’ve got three kids – all doing well and…
JW: So yeah outside of the city like you sort of got bolt somewhere outside of the city to have a day out or something?
AN: Yes. Just last week, last week Wednesday I was in Liverpool. Yeah we go out quite a lot. We go out of town quite a lot. We love going to Leeds. We’ve got family in Leeds so we go to Leeds. We do a lot of shopping in Leeds. We like weekends in Leeds. We do Leeds. We do Manchester. Yeah, we just love going away. Now the kids are older my youngest is 15 so we’ve got time to ourselves to do a lot of things so we, like this afternoon we’ll be going for lunch on the Avenues my wife and I so it’s our time now. We’ve, we can do a lot of things and we don’t have to worry about babysitting and things like that so. But we do have a nice life in Hull.
JW: And you do keep in touch with people back in the Gambia?
AN: Oh yeah. God everyday I’m on the Viva and Whatsapp every day. Just this morning we’ve been speaking to friends in Gambia. I’ve got a lot of friends over there- because a lot of Gambians like I said back in the ‘80’s as soon as you’ve finished your O’levels and A’Levels you had to come abroad to further education so. But some of my Gambian friends have finished their education and they’re back in Gambia and so I do keep in touch with a lot of them. All the time.
JW: How do you describe Hull to them?
AN: Obviously now a lot of Gambian’s know about Hull because obviously we’re in the premiership so people get to know about Hull. People who follow rugby or even mostly in Gambia most of the people play, they play rugby union because you have the ex-patriots there, they follow union but people are aware of ruby league and they’re aware of the teams we’ve got in Hull that they’re also in the top league in the rugby league so people are aware of Hull. I think since we got promoted how many years ago, the first time we got promoted people are aware of Hull.
But a lot of people in Gambia, I remember when I first came for this, they said to me “oh we already know Hull as a fishing village” because that’s what Hull used to be known for because obviously when you tell friend, oh live in Hull, they look it up. Then it was a big, massive fishing port so that’s what they used to say to me. It smells of fish over there or something like that but people are aware of Hull now and like I said being in the premiership that’s the main thing. Hull’s on the map now, a lot of people are aware of it and now obviously with the City of Culture stuff. I remember going back and saying oh about the city of culture people are aware of things now.
JW: What about Wilber – William Wilberforce.
AN: Oh Yeah.
JW: What did you know about Wilberforce before coming back to Hull?
AN: When I came to Hull obviously I did history and I did O’level History. I knew about the slave trade, I knew about William Wilberforce. I remember I think when I came back in ’82. I think the first week I went to visit the William Wilberforce place yeah I did because I did History so yeah and they’re aware of that. They are aware of William Wilberforce.
JW: Would you say that Hull is a changing city?
AN: Oh yeah. Massively.
JW: What sort of changes have you noticed?
AN: Changes in, how would I say – a lot of changes. More multicultural – because I remember when I first came to Hull you could go around the full town and you wouldn’t see any other Black face. I remember that. That’s a big thing. Most of the people I knew where students at the university but now it’s completely different, completely different. And I’m getting to like Hull even more. People say, “Oh, can’t wait to get out of Hull”, but my, my, you won’t believe this. My wife she wants to leave Hull. She wants to go live in the Gambia. That’s my wife’s aim obviously she’s been going to Gambia for thirty odd years and she just wants to live in Gambia. Which is something I want to do. that’s my aim to retire in Gambia but obviously it, my youngest being 15, that’s restricting me from going back but once she finishes my aim is to retire to Gambia. My eldest son is at university in Newcastle. I don’t know about Ellis, he’s very laid back but Montel, the middle one, he wants to be out, he wants to go and live in Australia. He’s just qualified as a fabricator and he wants to be out. So I’ve got a wife and a son who want to, don’t want to be here but because Montel is very ambitious, very ambitious like his mum. Very ambitious, I’m easy going, I’ll go with the flow but my aim is to go and retire in Gambia or to have a lifestyle whereby I can spend the summer here and the winter back home. I think a lot of people would like that lifestyle and there’s lots of Brits who do that, a lot of Brits in Gambia who do that who have properties here and properties over there. And they spend the summer here and the winter over there. That’s the ideal sort of lifestyle.
JW: Have you ever had ambitions to live anywhere else? Other parts of the globe?
AN: Yep. America – because I’ve got family there. Because my sisters live out there. We thought about emigrating a few years ago but then like I said it wasn’t as easy. But we still have the opportunity to go on holiday there so it doesn’t matter. But America would have been another place I would have liked to live.
JW: Are you widely travelled?
AN: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Holidays yeah. I’ve been America, we’ve been so many times. And one thing I do regret is when the kids were younger or before we had a family, we always used to go America my wife and I always use to go to America. America Gambia, America Gambia. I think I wish we’d visited other places. I’ve been to Australia. I’ve been to Dubai, I’ve been to the Canaries round there but I wish I’d done more travelling before we had the kids. I wish I’d travelled even more. I wish I’d gone to like India and places like that or Mexico but…
JW: There’s plenty of time isn’t there?
AN: Well. Time. Yeah probably. Yes, but I’m getting on now. 52. I’m getting on now.
JW: what do you think travel does for a person?
AN: Travelling obviously – it’s the way for education. Educate yourself by travelling and it makes you a better person. And you just end to see more things in life and you appreciate how good life we’ve got here when you go to other places and see how some people live. Like I talked a lot to my clients, some of them have never been to Africa. You’ve got to travel and see the world. It makes you a better person. You appreciate life when you see how other people live.
JW: So other than travel and other than living back in the Gambia – what other ambitions have you got?
AN: Ambitions. Right – we’ve always wanted to have our own business. My wife’s always wanted to have our own bar and restaurant and that’s one thing we want to have back home in the Gambia if we did retire. We like entertaining so it would be nice to have a restaurant or a bar something like that. That’s one thing we’ve always said.
JW: Has life turned out how you expected it to?
AN: It never turns out how you expect it to, no. Because you always think right I want to do this, I want to do that. But it’s just time to get there but. Like I said I’m still, there’s still enough time in life to do things but hopefully it might do, hopefully, but that’s the aim is to go and live in the Gambia. Retire there and just have the perfect life.
JW: So people listening to this, this podcast- what do you hope they’d take away from it? What sort of lesson or message do you hope they’ll take away from listening to your stories?
AN: That travelling is a big factor. It makes you a better person. And not to be just cocooned in this little place and you know. You’ve got to get around, you’ve got to get to places, that’s one way you can educate yourself. That’s, that’s one thing I’ll say. Travelling is a big, big factor in life.
JW: And what about your ambitions for your children?
AN: Well my kids, like I said Montel, the middle one, very ambitious. He wants to go and live in Australia. My daughter, very ambitious also. Ellis is very reserved. Ellis my eldest son but my daughter I know she’ll travel. Like - last summer she wanted to go to America for the full summer semester which this summer she’s going to stay there because she want to, go into theatre dance theatre then next minute she wants to be a lawyer.
My kids are very, very ambitious, very ambitious. And I know they’ll do very well because they’ve seen what we’ve done. They’ve seen how other people have, what other people have done in life. They’ll do very well in life. I’ll have no worries about them in life how they’ll do but I know they’ll do very well. I know they will. It’s part of their upbringing because I mean you push them to a degree don’t you. Let them see things. They’ve seen what we do. So I think they’ll take it from there. They’ll do well. They will do well I know that. Because they’re bright kids also. So they will do well.
Interviewer: Jerome Whittingham
Date: 9 November 2016
JW: So first and foremost, can you introduce yourself? Tell us who you are so that the people that are listening in know who you are.
AN: My name is Adrian Njie
JW: And what's your connection then with Africa?
AN: My parents are from Africa, both my mum and dad. Well I still class myself as an African because even though I was born here in the UK, but I went back to live in The Gambia when I was a year old.
JW: So, are you going to tell me about how your parents met?
AN: Right, OK, yeah. My dad obviously was a student here at the university, reading law. And my mum was a student, but in Dewsbury. But there was a Gambian lady who was also doing nursing in Grims...in Dewsbury, but she knew my dad...in Gambia. So she's come to Hull. And that's how my mum met my dad. They met here and then they got married in Hull, down Bricknell - the Methodist church there in sixty what year? I can't remember. I've got photographs of the wedding. And they used to live down St George's Road in the 60s. And that's when, obviously when I was born here. I think my mum had us, she used to be a midwife at Hedon Road Hospital, but she had us all at Beverley, Beverley Westwood Hospital. Then I was, I was the last to be born. So I was born in 1964, went back to Gambia in '65. But they met here and my mum's still living nowadays. My mum would ring me and she'll say to me, "Can you go to this shop on Hessle Road?" And I'll think, "Mum, that shop doesn't exist anymore!" Because they used to live down St George's Road, so all back in the 60s they used to do all their shopping up there. She'll say "Oh, I remember we used to go get pigs' trotters and all this stuff from here and fish, kippers" Oh she loves fish, she loves kippers! Sometimes, even when I'm going home, I'll take kippers for my mum. Oh yeah, kippers and mackerel and all that stuff, I'll take it. You know the ones in the cellophane things? Oh she loves that! The things she asks me for, you know what African parents are like! Honest to God she asks me for all sorts! "Go get me this from this shop on Hessle Road" - "Mum, that shop doesn't exist anymore, that was in 1964, '63." But she had some good times and like I said, they got married here in Hull. They had some really good times, we were all born here, so.
JW: Now that's an interesting story then that you were born in the UK and actually most of your childhood and formative years was back in The Gambia?
AN: That's right, yeah!
JW: So tell me something about your earliest memories then of being in The Gambia.
AN: Right, okay, obviously - we went back to The Gambia in sixty five. Obviously I did all my schooling in The Gambia, went to nursery, primary school, senior school. And I still class Gambia as home because I was brought up there. As I said, most of my childhood was in the Gambia. So...
JW: So, what was school life like?
AN: Fantastic! Obviously I went to a nursery school, then I went to a primary school, which was a Catholic school, because we're Catholics. And I remember my primary school days, very strict, very, very strict, primary school. And senior school also, that was a Catholic school, very strict and so it was a massive culture shock when I came over here - because of the way kids are brought up in The Gambia, or in Africa in general, they are brought up to respect people, so...
Right. We lived in an area called Fajara, which is - it's not in the capital. And at the time when we moved to The Gambia the Fajara area was all bush. Could have counted how many houses were there, because it was an area where no one had decided to go live there, because it was just not jungle, but just bush. And I remember there was one house there, even at my age, at five, I remember just seeing one house where we were supposed to be living. And there were a few other properties dotted around, but we lived in the government's quarter because my dad... Well when my dad went back to Gambia, really he was a barrister here, so when he went back there he went back because he was appointed the job over there. So we lived in the government quarters. Which is, I think, then in the 60s, late 60s, early 70s, most of the residents, they were all colonial people, Brits. But obviously my dad being appointed that job over there as - Chief Justice, he was given one of those quarters 'til we had our house built. So I remember all of that, I remember our house being built. I remember, just had a really good life. I remember that, I do remember most of the things.
JW: Would you say it sort of felt colonial then, even then?
AN: Not really, no, no, no. We had lots of Brits there, because, like I said, obviously Gambia gained independence from Britain, we had loads of Brits there but - it didn't feel that way at all. Maybe earlier days before we gained independence, it could have been like that, but obviously I don't know about that. But it didn't feel very colonial then.
JW: So - as a young child who were you surrounded with? Friends and...
AN: Friends, most, friends. If I can remember, most of my friends around there were all...
JW: What I'm thinking is that it doesn't sound like a very big community.
AN: No, it was tiny then! I mean I remember where we lived there used to be a club, a golf club, and that's where my dad used to live, just near the… and the golf club, it was mostly the expatriates who were members of the golf club. They had golf clubs there, they used to play tennis, they used to play snooker. I remember my dad was a brilliant snooker player, or played snooker. So most of the kids there were all expatriates. Those kids were in The Gambia, they were my friends around that area, because at that age those were the friends I had until I started going to nursery and started meeting other Gambian kids, but they were mostly - expatriates' kids. And we had a lot of Lebanese in The Gambia then. And they were all the people who were living around that area if I can recall.
JW: So what did you shine at, at school?
AN: I was very sporty. I did okay academic-wise, but I was very sporty. I was involved in most of the I played football for my school. I played table tennis for the school. I was an athlete. I just did everything sporty, but I did academic-wise I did okay. But I had to push myself on the academic side.
JW: When you began to think of your future - did you set yourself any goals? What did you want to be?
AN: When I was younger I always wanted to be a lawyer, because my dad was a barrister. We, my dad, obviously I lost my dad when I was five. So me, me not having that father figure behind me, obviously I did something else. But I always wanted to be a lawyer because I remember my dad wearing his wig and things like that and you think, "Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind being like that!" Because I remember my childhood, obviously when my dad was - made Chief Justice of The Gambia, I remember we had a really good life, I remember we had a driver, I remember we had guards on our gates. I remember that. So that was the life I knew. Obviously I thought I wouldn't mind that sort of lifestyle! I thought, "Oh I want to be a lawyer." That's always what I aimed for, but obviously like I say, I lost my father at the age of five. So they do push their kids, don't they? They all want their kids to be lawyers, or engineers, or accountants, or but obviously I went the other way. I was pushed, but - she just thought "Whatever you want to do, you do it as long as you do it to your best ability." So, but I knew if my dad was alive I probably would have been a lawyer. I'd have been pushed to do that, to read law.
JW: Do you come from a big family?
AN: My dad had four brothers. Yeah, Gambia, we've got really extended families. Even though my dad's brothers were his blood brothers, same father and mother, but we had loads of other, what do you call them? Extended family. - Like my surname, the Njie surname - I'd say about 70% of us are related. And I've even got, even though I'm a Catholic or Christian, I've even got family who are Muslims. And that's, I don't know how that happened in Africa, but we've got massive extended families.
JW: What's the population of The Gambia?
AN: Ah, it's changed so much! Obviously I've not kept in touch with it, but since they had all that fighting in Sierra Leone and Liberia, we've got lots of - refugees in The Gambia. So I'm just, I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the population is. But Gambia is such a small place; it's such a small place.
JW: So tell me about the journey from The Gambia to the UK. How did that come about?
AN: Right, African parents want the best for their kids and most kids in The Gambia, as soon as you finish high school, Back in the 80s we didn't have any universities in The Gambia. So once you finished - senior school, if you did your O-levels then A-levels you had to go to either Sierra Leone, or other African countries. Sierra Leone was very popular; a lot of Gambians went to university there. But most Gambians who studied, because you'll find out, most of the - professional Africans or Gambians, most of them studied here in the UK. And the only place they sent their kids was back to the UK. And that's why I came back here. But obviously, we, I had an uncle who lived in Hull. So after my O-levels, because at the time I did O-levels, now they do GCSEs now don't they? At the time I did my O-levels, so as soon as I finished my O-levels I came over here. I stayed with my uncle in Bilton. I went to school in Bilton Grange.
JW: So you'd be 14 years old?
AN: No, no, no, I was 16. School in The Gambia is different to this place. I know here I remember being in my class in Gambia and there must have been kids who were like - when I was in year 1 at 11/12, there must have been kids who were like 17, because of the way people are brought up over there. And I think throughout high school I was always one of the youngest in my class. By the time I finished my O-levels in '82... They even kept me back one year because I was too young, I was too young. And that's what, sometimes they do that in Africa, if you're too young they'll keep you back to say - "No, you're not gonna go!" So I finished my O-levels at 17, 16 or 17. Then I came over here, and then obviously I was late to start college, because I was going to go to Hull College of Further Education. So I ended up going to school in Bilton Grange.
JW: Let’s talk about that, that moment that you got off the plane now you sort of coming home in many ways, coming back to the UK.
AN: Oh year, I mean but whilst, I lived in the Gambia, we use to come to England on holidays in the summer, stayed in London because I had family in London, I had an auntie who lived in Golders Green and things like that so we used to come to England quite a bit but I never used to venture up north to Hull. And I remember arriving at Gatwick obviously stayed with my auntie down in London and 2 days later I travelled up. I remember coming on the train and as we were approaching Goole and Hull I thought “Bloody Hell”. You know, all the old buildings you see and that’s my goodness me I wasn’t used to that. So it was a culture shock then.
When I came over here and we had to go, my uncle lived in like I said Bilton, but we went through Bilton Grange and that was a culture shock when I saw the houses. Even though yes in London they had a lot of – terrace houses but it was slightly different, we used to live with aunties and apartments so I didn’t see all this terrace houses that you see when you come in through St George’s Road and things like that. That was a culture shock and stayed with my uncle in Bilton, went to Bilton Grange School for a year. That was a massive culture shock, also going to school at Bilton Grange because the school I went to in Gambia being primary and senior school – very strict catholic school, we had to wear uniforms. I remember even at senior school I had to wear shorts, socks right up to there. Proper uniforms and to go to Bilton Grange where you just wore whatever you wanted. It thought all my Christmases had come at once.
And I met so many nice people there. Even though it’s sort of a deprived area but, and some of the kids I don’t think that some of them had ever spoken to a Black person before. Because I remember I was in the sixth form. I remember coming out for assembly the first day in assembly and I walked out and everyone just looked at me like I was the only Black person in the school. I was the only Black guy in the school and everyone just looked at me like that but they were some of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Nicest people. Lunchtime I remember I used to have people surrounding me, just wanting to know about Africa. I remember I used to tell them all sorts of stories. About living in trees and wearing grass skirts. I remember and I still see some of them now. I still see, but I had such a good time. They were some of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Didn’t come across any racism or anything like that.
Nicest people even the teachers a lot of them because I remember coming across and bringing some of my exam papers. I remember my English Language teacher here looking at our O’level exam papers thinking how the hell do you guys pass this because our standards over there were so high standards you know. Because over there we taught grammar you know we used to be, at school overt there if you speak your language and you were heard speaking your language you got detention for that because they just encouraged us to speak English and write English properly. So when I came I met some nice people at school. I was there for a year then went to college. Did Business and Finance and from there just started working.
JW: Were there any differences in college then or was that more multicultural?
AN: Yes obviously when I went to Hull College there were more, mind you there weren’t many Blacks there. There were a few and I made a few friends there but again that was more of how can I explain that – feel more at home. Because you met a few more different people, you know. Yeah so it was nice, it was nice. Because I was there for three years. Because did a one year course then I did a two year course then obviously I applied for jobs and most of the banks. But my first job was working in Customs and Excise. I was a Customs Officer for four years then because I did Business and Finance then applied to the banks and I was spoilt for choice. I think I got three job offers.
JW: has any of the African culture – sort of travelled with you?
AN: I’ve still got. Oh yeah definitely, big part of me.
JW: Give me some examples.
AN: - When you say some examples what do you mean?
JW: Well was there African foods, arts…
AN: - Oh yeah. Goodness me. Even my wife cooks a lot of African food even though my wife is white and British. She cooks all African food and there’s a lot of Gambians in Hull now. Quite a lot of Gambians in Hull and there’s a lot of African restaurants in Hull. Like a friend of mine has just opened up one recently down Spring Bank called Jollof which is my tribe, I’m from the Jollof tribe – but a lot of other West African countries like Sierra Leone, Ghana, Nigeria. It’s this Jollof rice. Have you heard of Jollof rice? They all claim it’s theirs but it’s a Gambian dish. It’s a Gambian dish and that’s one thing. So if any of the Africans are going to be listening or West Africans are listening to this, Jollof rice is from the Gambia. And it’s from the Gambia and Senegal. And that’s our tribe, that’s my tribe. I’m from the Wolof tribe.
JW: I’m thinking that’s probably the most contentious thing we’ve, we’ve maybe recorded.
AN: Yes.
JW: In the whole of the project.
AN: Oh definitely. Nigeria claims that it’s theirs. Ghanaians claim it’s theirs. Sierra Leon claims it’s theirs but the Jollof rice comes from the Gambia and Senegal.
JW: We’re going to have the rice dish wars then springing up.
AN: Oh yeah, definitely.
JW: So tell me about life in Hull then, adult life in Hull. What do you enjoy doing?
AN: What do I enjoy doing in Hull?
JW: What do you get about to?
AN: Well, we go out quite a lot my wife and I. And obviously I’ve got kids. I’ve got a family. I’ve got three kids but they’re all grown up now and now I think growing up in Hull, working during the week, weekends was just party time. We used to just got out all the time, all the time but then when you do get married, when you do get married things change don’t they. You’ve got your family. You have to bring your family up and things like that. So we’ve got three kids – all doing well and…
JW: So yeah outside of the city like you sort of got bolt somewhere outside of the city to have a day out or something?
AN: Yes. Just last week, last week Wednesday I was in Liverpool. Yeah we go out quite a lot. We go out of town quite a lot. We love going to Leeds. We’ve got family in Leeds so we go to Leeds. We do a lot of shopping in Leeds. We like weekends in Leeds. We do Leeds. We do Manchester. Yeah, we just love going away. Now the kids are older my youngest is 15 so we’ve got time to ourselves to do a lot of things so we, like this afternoon we’ll be going for lunch on the Avenues my wife and I so it’s our time now. We’ve, we can do a lot of things and we don’t have to worry about babysitting and things like that so. But we do have a nice life in Hull.
JW: And you do keep in touch with people back in the Gambia?
AN: Oh yeah. God everyday I’m on the Viva and Whatsapp every day. Just this morning we’ve been speaking to friends in Gambia. I’ve got a lot of friends over there- because a lot of Gambians like I said back in the ‘80’s as soon as you’ve finished your O’levels and A’Levels you had to come abroad to further education so. But some of my Gambian friends have finished their education and they’re back in Gambia and so I do keep in touch with a lot of them. All the time.
JW: How do you describe Hull to them?
AN: Obviously now a lot of Gambian’s know about Hull because obviously we’re in the premiership so people get to know about Hull. People who follow rugby or even mostly in Gambia most of the people play, they play rugby union because you have the ex-patriots there, they follow union but people are aware of ruby league and they’re aware of the teams we’ve got in Hull that they’re also in the top league in the rugby league so people are aware of Hull. I think since we got promoted how many years ago, the first time we got promoted people are aware of Hull.
But a lot of people in Gambia, I remember when I first came for this, they said to me “oh we already know Hull as a fishing village” because that’s what Hull used to be known for because obviously when you tell friend, oh live in Hull, they look it up. Then it was a big, massive fishing port so that’s what they used to say to me. It smells of fish over there or something like that but people are aware of Hull now and like I said being in the premiership that’s the main thing. Hull’s on the map now, a lot of people are aware of it and now obviously with the City of Culture stuff. I remember going back and saying oh about the city of culture people are aware of things now.
JW: What about Wilber – William Wilberforce.
AN: Oh Yeah.
JW: What did you know about Wilberforce before coming back to Hull?
AN: When I came to Hull obviously I did history and I did O’level History. I knew about the slave trade, I knew about William Wilberforce. I remember I think when I came back in ’82. I think the first week I went to visit the William Wilberforce place yeah I did because I did History so yeah and they’re aware of that. They are aware of William Wilberforce.
JW: Would you say that Hull is a changing city?
AN: Oh yeah. Massively.
JW: What sort of changes have you noticed?
AN: Changes in, how would I say – a lot of changes. More multicultural – because I remember when I first came to Hull you could go around the full town and you wouldn’t see any other Black face. I remember that. That’s a big thing. Most of the people I knew where students at the university but now it’s completely different, completely different. And I’m getting to like Hull even more. People say, “Oh, can’t wait to get out of Hull”, but my, my, you won’t believe this. My wife she wants to leave Hull. She wants to go live in the Gambia. That’s my wife’s aim obviously she’s been going to Gambia for thirty odd years and she just wants to live in Gambia. Which is something I want to do. that’s my aim to retire in Gambia but obviously it, my youngest being 15, that’s restricting me from going back but once she finishes my aim is to retire to Gambia. My eldest son is at university in Newcastle. I don’t know about Ellis, he’s very laid back but Montel, the middle one, he wants to be out, he wants to go and live in Australia. He’s just qualified as a fabricator and he wants to be out. So I’ve got a wife and a son who want to, don’t want to be here but because Montel is very ambitious, very ambitious like his mum. Very ambitious, I’m easy going, I’ll go with the flow but my aim is to go and retire in Gambia or to have a lifestyle whereby I can spend the summer here and the winter back home. I think a lot of people would like that lifestyle and there’s lots of Brits who do that, a lot of Brits in Gambia who do that who have properties here and properties over there. And they spend the summer here and the winter over there. That’s the ideal sort of lifestyle.
JW: Have you ever had ambitions to live anywhere else? Other parts of the globe?
AN: Yep. America – because I’ve got family there. Because my sisters live out there. We thought about emigrating a few years ago but then like I said it wasn’t as easy. But we still have the opportunity to go on holiday there so it doesn’t matter. But America would have been another place I would have liked to live.
JW: Are you widely travelled?
AN: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Holidays yeah. I’ve been America, we’ve been so many times. And one thing I do regret is when the kids were younger or before we had a family, we always used to go America my wife and I always use to go to America. America Gambia, America Gambia. I think I wish we’d visited other places. I’ve been to Australia. I’ve been to Dubai, I’ve been to the Canaries round there but I wish I’d done more travelling before we had the kids. I wish I’d travelled even more. I wish I’d gone to like India and places like that or Mexico but…
JW: There’s plenty of time isn’t there?
AN: Well. Time. Yeah probably. Yes, but I’m getting on now. 52. I’m getting on now.
JW: what do you think travel does for a person?
AN: Travelling obviously – it’s the way for education. Educate yourself by travelling and it makes you a better person. And you just end to see more things in life and you appreciate how good life we’ve got here when you go to other places and see how some people live. Like I talked a lot to my clients, some of them have never been to Africa. You’ve got to travel and see the world. It makes you a better person. You appreciate life when you see how other people live.
JW: So other than travel and other than living back in the Gambia – what other ambitions have you got?
AN: Ambitions. Right – we’ve always wanted to have our own business. My wife’s always wanted to have our own bar and restaurant and that’s one thing we want to have back home in the Gambia if we did retire. We like entertaining so it would be nice to have a restaurant or a bar something like that. That’s one thing we’ve always said.
JW: Has life turned out how you expected it to?
AN: It never turns out how you expect it to, no. Because you always think right I want to do this, I want to do that. But it’s just time to get there but. Like I said I’m still, there’s still enough time in life to do things but hopefully it might do, hopefully, but that’s the aim is to go and live in the Gambia. Retire there and just have the perfect life.
JW: So people listening to this, this podcast- what do you hope they’d take away from it? What sort of lesson or message do you hope they’ll take away from listening to your stories?
AN: That travelling is a big factor. It makes you a better person. And not to be just cocooned in this little place and you know. You’ve got to get around, you’ve got to get to places, that’s one way you can educate yourself. That’s, that’s one thing I’ll say. Travelling is a big, big factor in life.
JW: And what about your ambitions for your children?
AN: Well my kids, like I said Montel, the middle one, very ambitious. He wants to go and live in Australia. My daughter, very ambitious also. Ellis is very reserved. Ellis my eldest son but my daughter I know she’ll travel. Like - last summer she wanted to go to America for the full summer semester which this summer she’s going to stay there because she want to, go into theatre dance theatre then next minute she wants to be a lawyer.
My kids are very, very ambitious, very ambitious. And I know they’ll do very well because they’ve seen what we’ve done. They’ve seen how other people have, what other people have done in life. They’ll do very well in life. I’ll have no worries about them in life how they’ll do but I know they’ll do very well. I know they will. It’s part of their upbringing because I mean you push them to a degree don’t you. Let them see things. They’ve seen what we do. So I think they’ll take it from there. They’ll do well. They will do well I know that. Because they’re bright kids also. So they will do well.