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Joseph Bvumburai
Joe Bvumburai's heritage lies in Zimbabwe, but he was born in Zambia when racial segregation was prevalent. At the age of twenty-two he came to Hull to study architecture at the Hull School of Architecture under a Swedish scholarship. Joe talks about his first experience of snow, rugby and the sights and sounds of Hull in 1982. He currently works as an architect in Hull inspiring others through his innovative buildings.
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transcription: Joseph Bvumburai
Interview with Joseph Bvumburai
Interviewer: Jerome Whittingham
Date: 22 July 2016
JW: Now I'm finding this project fascinating already.
JB: Right.
JW: Cause I'm getting to meet with people that I've, I simply don't know, I've never met you before.
JB: Right.
JW: So just for the benefit of the listeners, can you tell me your name, your full name?
JB: Yes, my name is - Joseph Matsweru Bvumburai.
JW: Excellent, I think we're gonna need to check the spelling of that yeah. And your, your connection to Africa is?
JB: Yeah, well my, I come from - central Africa obviously my parents came from Zimbabwe I was born in Zambia - which is where I was, I grew up.
JW: Yeah yeah.
JB: I had never been anywhere else - until I came here.
JW: So tell me about growing up in Zambia then.
JB: Oh well luckily I had a childhood, I mean at the time I was born it was during the - colonial days - obviously what was know as Apartheid in South Africa was actually prevalent throughout central Africa.
JW: What year was this?
JB: I was born in 1957, yeah so when I was a, Zambia came independent in 1964 but as a child I could remember – sort of going to the city centre you know, toilets for whites only.
JW: Really?
JB: And areas and even, even the shopping in the city centre you had the first class which was strictly reserved for whites and there would be the second class area which was for the - Asian community.
JW: OK. How old were you before that felt uncomfortable and you recognised that something wasn't quite right?
JB: I think I was probably perhaps about maybe nine or ten - well as a, as a young man you just thought maybe that's how the world is - but then obviously as you get a bit older and as your parents and uncles tell you stories then you begin to realise that it’s not quite right, yeah.
JW: So how does that feel for a nine, a nine year old, ten year old? How did that change your feelings at the time?
JB: - I don't think it changed feelings particularly because you're just born with it and gone, brought up within the area but as soon as you being to realise that you can't do certain things then you just begin to get like - a rebellious nature, in you and you say oh why can't I go in that toilet or this line, why can't I go into that line and so on, so you just, - begins to trigger some emotions - within you really.
JW: Yeah.
JB: Yeah.
JW: Where you a rebellious teenager?
JB: I don't think I particularly was but when it came to things that matter even though I was growing up then sometimes you had to stand up for what you believed in so and - yeah its - you just have to do what needs to be done - if there’s some sort of injustice in the system you try and – instead of rebel against it and try and correct it yeah.
JW: Yeah. Tell me about your family, your parents?
JB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well my parents were born in - Zimbabwe - but my father was one of the probably first African drivers in - central Africa and - when he got his driving license, I think he got it in Zimbabwe as far I remember and - he was - a son of a Chief in a place called Chivi in - Zimbabwe and he was the first born of the second wife of the Chief. And at the time I think the Christian were sort of - most Scottish and Christians I mean most of central Africa was inhabited by the Scots people due to Doctor David Livingstone and the rest of the world was preaching about you know one man one wife sort of philosophy and my father being from the second wife was - I think the children of the second wife weren't treat that well because of the culture that was beginning to come around that time so he was a bit upset with the system and decided to leave Zimbabwe altogether and - came to Zambia and he got a job - with a company called Wenela and that job used to transport - workers from the Federation which was Rhodesia, Zambia and Malawi. They, you took them in the back of the truck all the way to South Africa and then bring the workers who were there for a while, then back through Zimbabwe, Zambia and Malawi yeah and my mother was a maid - for my dad’s boss so to speak - and I believe was born in one of those households - where we - lived in the servant quarters
JW: Did you ever meet your dad’s boss?
JB: No no no, well not that boss at the time. I came to meet other bosses afterwards my when I was sort of in - primary school, secondary school - most of them would have been South African born and so on quite successful white men who had trucks and so on and my dad being a driver he drove one of the trucks.
JW: Yeah. How old were you when you came over to the UK?
JB: I was twenty two.
JW: Twenty two?
JB: Yeah that was in September – 1982.
JW: Right so did you work in Africa? Did you have a job in Africa before you came over?
JB: Yes actually I started in - Architecture Technology because I've always wanted to become and Architect since I was a child and at the time there were no schools of Architecture. The nearest I could get was - a college which was run by the Canadians and - they did Architecture Technology which I believe is equivalent to the HND here.
So when I finished that I said yeah right I'm gonna open up my own practice and become successful - yes I finished the course and when I tried to open up my practice I just couldn't cause all the Architect firms were run by the Scottish you know sort of roles for British Architects and they had their own club.
JW: You found a wall preventing your access in?
JB: Yes yes, there was a very strong concrete high wall and the chap I worked for at the time a guy called Stuart Neil he said look Joe the only way if you want to draw you have to become an architect so I just sat down and applied to about 150 colleges and universities all over the world and - the very first one that - responded was the School of Architecture in Hull. So I'd got the position. My father couldn't afford to sponsor me and - I just sort of sat down and racked my brain and said oh. At that time I was living at Copperbelt in Zambia and I went to Lusaka and were just knocking on the embassies you know in the High Commissions and I would just knock and say, look I'm Joe Bvumburai, I've got a place to study for a degree in Architecture in Hull, can you sponsor me?
JW: Gosh.
JB: And obviously in those days were was no security, no cameras you just knock on the door, and they would let you in, who are you and - after about two days I was just giving up I think it was about half past three in the afternoon and I just thought I would knock on the Swedish Embassy and I went and knocked there and their eyes sort of lit up and said yeah yeah yeah I think we can do something for you, said really, er said yeah and they had what you call the Swedish International Development Agency - SIDA they call it and they were sponsoring students abroad via the Zambia Government so the chap there, I think it was the Educational Attaché he just scribbled a note and said her take this to the government office of such of such and they will arrange a scholarship and I went there and before I knew it they had actually write a cheque for seven thousand pounds said here three thousand pounds for your fees and four thousand pounds for you to live on.
JW: Gosh.
JB: And that how I came here.
JW and JB: (laugh)
JW: It’s just as easy to get funds these days.
JB: If only.
JW: So it must have felt like Christmas to you basically a real gift.
JB: Oh it just felt like I was in the seventh heaven it was absolutely you know the best news.
JW: Yeah.
JB: And I ran and told my mother. My mother wasn't particularly quite happy because we were really poor and was looking for me to start working and start looking and helping supporting the family - and because I lived in the Copperbelt I remember on the day of the – flight, one it was the first time I had been on a plane and I flew from Kitwe to Lusaka which is the capital city of Zambia and I stayed overnight in Lusaka at my mums and my mum couldn't understand why I had spent all this money you know on a plane, well I said I haven't spent it, it’s all part of the you know the scholarship because I think in her mind she said well if you come by bus the rest could have paid the rent or – so on but I had to explain to her that that was the situation.
JW: Yeah.
JB: So anyway I came here and I got a flight into London Heathrow. I remember as I was circling around Heathrow I could see these rows and rows of houses so I asked the chap sat next to me, I said what are those? He said, “what do you mean?”, I said “those straight houses”, he said, “oh they are houses” I said, “what houses?”, cause if you imagine all the white people I knew they lived in big mansions with yards and so on, so in my mind I thought that’s how all white people lived you know they all had mansions and they all had servants and so on, so at Heathrow I said no I'm gonna change my flight, instead of flying to Humberside I'll go by train and obviously as a - young child we, our education was - the curriculum was actually by the - Cambridge University and all the history we used to study was about London you know Westminster Abbey and so on and all those building and places just stuck in my head, so I wanted to see them so I actually said I'm going to go into London for a couple of days and visit all these places Big Ben and so on and yes true enough those long blocks that I was seeing were terraced houses and I couldn't see any big houses with mansions.
JW: So how were you feeling, then - at that time you head out into London for a couple of days having coming from Africa a young lad mid twenties?
JB: Yes twenty two, yeah.
JW: Just how did that feel?
JB: It was actually quite an experience because - I mean, with the whole place having been a colony of - Great Britain you are like you are coming to know almost like a motherland really, you know the place where everything advanced and so and everything happened and just to be in London the capital city for just an experience it was, it was just out of this world - while it was very cold and I was in a safari suit which was totally inappropriate and - oh it was just oh an experience I mean there were no emails or anything like that so I sat down and bought an – air letter, there were air letters then and wrote quickly as I, note to my parents arrived in London this and that, would you believe there is an underground train here said what an underground train so it was quite and experience the following day after about a couple of days I think it was - I then got a train to Humberside and that’s how I actually got to Hull yeah to study architecture.
JW: So, which year was this again?
JB: This was 1982.
JW:1982?
JB: Yes.
JW: OK, so cast your mind back to 1982, to Hull, as a city.
JB: Yes.
JW: ...and the area.
JB: Yes.
JW: Describe Hull for us in 1982.
JB: Well, first of all it as very different to London, obviously, - there was not as many buildings, not as many people. In London, as soon as you arrived, obviously, there were lots of, you know, ethnic – people – so and for me to see loads of, ethnic – because in Zambia all the people I had ever seen were just white, Asian and – black, those were the only two or three ethnicities I was sort of used to. Then you come to London and there was all sorts of – ethnic – minority people, then you come to Hull everyone you saw was just white.
JW: Yes.
JB: In fact, I remember after about a week I said “I am gonna walk into the town centre and just explore the town centre.” And, -, it was about 2 o’clock in the afternoon and I was walking on, on the Prospect Street and this chap called me and said, “Oh, oh, come, come here.” It was a butcher, said, I thought maybe he had something to tell me, said “oh, yea, yea, yes he passed by here at half past ten, he went that way.” I said, “Oh, who? Said “Oh, your brother, your brother” and that was the second person, second black person he had seen that day. Wow! This is, this is eh?
JW: So did that make you feel special or did that make you feel vulnerable?
JB: Oh well, I mean, at that time it made me, it made me feel quite special, because, I mean – you would go in a pub and you would be the only black person, you in the classroom, of course in the classroom there were quite a few -, - ethnic from Malaysia and so on, but when you were walking in the city centre and there is danger areas, you were literally the only black person and instantly begin to notice people looking at you. -, so sometime it would feel a bit special and, actually, did feel special for a while until someone started calling me names which, actually, took me by surprise and – they would call you this name and say “Oh did, did they actually say that” and you look at them. They actually saying it, so - right…
JW In what sort of scenario was that? Was that in a workplace?
JB: No, no, no. This was just walking in the street, not just, cause obviously, as a young man you are keen to, to, sort of explore the area where you are living. – that time I was living on Westbourne , Westbourne Avenue. – there it was alright cause loads of International students, Internationals where I live but the minute you come out of the Avenues area and start walking down Princes Avenue or, or Spring Bank, or, or in fact, outside those areas, away from the university hub – life was quite different and obviously, I used to do my martial arts and jogging was part of my training and you’d go jogging and every now and again I could almost guarantee that – every time I go jogging one or two people would call you a name. So, you sort of got used to that but – luckily I had some very good friends in the School of Architecture. I mean they welcomed me with, - you know, with - two hands. – they invited me into their homes and so on and, -, in fact I remember I didn’t know anything about rugby and my friends introduced me to rugby, watching rugby and I remember in 1982 to 83, I watched every black and whites game that was played. So, and that was quite an experience as well, yes, cause you would go to various places, by bus and – it was – it was just, just amazing. Yes.
JW: Which parts of – British culture, English culture – did you embrace most rapidly in?
JB: ...well first, first of all I didn’t know Christmas was a big thing around here – in Zambia some of the shops they would decorate them with some fluffy white bits. I have no idea what those fluffy white bits were – did not know shops did them and would just say “Oh! That’s supposed to be Christmas.” But when I came here, one day when -, - in the, in the School of Architecture, - it had snowed but when inside there was a lecture and then it was time to go home and I just noticed my, my friends weren’t there. So I sort of went round looking for them. They were nowhere to be seen, so I said, “Alright, okay, I will just go, go home.” But as I came out of the School of Archi… outside the whole world was white and within a second I could see all these balls coming at me, throwing snowballs and that was my first introduction to snow. So, so that was quite a fantastic, and then obviously around Christmas time, you know, everyone is quite happy and merry and – I think that culture is quite, is quite an amazing one. – so that was probably my first experience of – a British culture and lots of food and everyone seems to be in high spirits even though you had to attire yourself from toe to head with clothing, warm clothing otherwise you’d freeze.
JW: Did you get homesick at all?
JB: ...well the, the first year it was just full of - adventure, cause it – and not only that - as a school of, as a student they organised a trip to go to Italy by bus, - to go and see, you know, the renaissance architecture and so on. And again, that was an experience which I would never forget. - but I was al-always eager to go back and tell the stories and say look this is what I found and so on. - and I missed home in that regard and I also missed the sun cause the cold I, I couldn’t get used to the cold, cause sometimes you forget, you know, when you are in your room there’s the radiator on and you make a mistake of, “Oh! I am just going to buy some bread.” You come out without wearing anything but no sooner had you opened the front door –“ right I have to go and get my coat and gloves.”
JW: So how long did it take you to acclimatize?
JB: I... I am still trying to.
JW: You’re still trying?
JB: Yes! So that, that was the sort of the homesick bit which I would miss and -, obviously, the foods were quite different here, - and so on, and you, I learned how to eat a lot of chips and fish and chips. - a colleague that was a close friend of mine liked Chinese. So would buy Chinese food, say, “So but Chinese is not British is it?” So would eat that and so on, yes and then -, - come the summer, you know, when the end of first year, couldn’t wait to go back home. –for this, - and when I got back home I had an uncle whom you could just spend five minutes telling him a story but then you would spend another three hours telling the same story to everybody else and then I remember when, when I got home -, obviously, I was, I was tired from the flight and everything and – first of all here they start work at nine, over there they start work at seven in the morning. So that was a big difference. Now here I said “Nine that’s, that’s easy and you finish work at five instead of seven and finish about five, half past five, so, and, and in the morning when I was waking up that day my brother came to wake me up and says, “Oh, it’s time” and I say “But it’s only about seven, why do you, why do, you know, just give me about half an hour.” So he say, “Oh alright, OK for now.” Then after that he came back – again and knocked and so in the end I had to wake up and then I got outside and there was like a huge crowd outside our house and my uncle, the storyteller, he was right next to me. Evidently I was the first one in that residential area, - which was mostly council housing, to have actually gone abroad, - to England and -, - everyone knew about England although, they’d never been there so they were waiting. I mean my uncle had told a bit about the underground trains, you know, the tubes. He had already spread the word, - so when the people came they wanted to hear it from the horse’s mouth - and I was quite taken aback but they, - they was asking me all sorts of questions, you know and – I just sat there and talked and talked and talked, I mean I could talk for England as well – but...
JW: You’re great to interview, that’s for sure. So – what – of your African upbringing have you sort of brought to the UK and continued? So, have you got any sort of African – culture that you continue – over here?
JB: I think, say when, when we were growing up my mother always used to say that “Look! education, education, education.” It was the only way out of poverty, - in Africa, - and she just instilled in us that much that – if you didn’t go to school then really, well, in fact, her example was that if you don’t go to school you end up cleaning toilets and sweeping in the streets and so on. And those were regarded as the lowest jobs you could think, especially cleaning toilets and – so that culture, that really has been instilled in me – to the extent that I shall set a rule that look, when my children were being born and they started going to school said “Look in this house everybody has to get a degree whether you like it or not.” I mean, there, there are things like just, just other things like, in Africa, we are told to wash once a day. For example, I remember we shared this, a room with some students and every morning I would be in the shower room and they would be asking “Why is he in the shower room every morning?” I said “Well that’s what you do, you have a shower every morning.” And then they’ll just go there and take a wet towel and thing - and I just found that extremely strange.
JW: Have you taken any of – English culture or UK culture back to Africa in you visits?
JB: Yes. Timekeeping.
JW: Timekeeping?
JB: Yes.
JW: You were bang on the nail today.
JB: If anything was – obvious I had African time for very long time and in fact I had it until I started my own company -, - you know, when I used to look for other people, go for a meeting and I would be late and everyone would be either upset or so and I couldn’t see why they were upset. So when I was late, I mean, I was just “Look I’m just late, just late” you know, ten minutes, fifteen minutes, sometimes half an hour late to meetings, - but afterward when you start your own company you just begin to realise how precious time is and – in Africa we only half, only late by half an hour. That’s no big deal really, we could be waiting for an hour – and if you are lucky they turn up, maybe they might come up to two hours later and you don’t even talk or discuss it, - that’s one thing. The other thing is customer care. Most of the time you go to a shop and you find the shop assistant is talking to a friend and they won’t stop talking to a friend to serve you. You have got to wait till that conversation is over then says, “Oh! Can I help you?” Then they just take the things and put the change on there, then they start talking to… That, that really gets on my nerves. So that bit I would take back to Africa and then that thing was drinking tea at any time. My dad was a tea drinker cause he used to work for the Scottish bosses and so on and every morning he would have tea but would only drink it in the morning, no other time – and then in the afternoon, - I would say “Oh! Can I have a cup of tea?” because I had become used to drinking tea and he’d say “Joe, he’s asking for tea in the afternoon, something’s wrong with him.” -, so those are some of the things I’ve. I’ve sort of, I did take back, -, - it’s, it’s quite amazing. Small things but which make an impact and the other thing I discovered is not many people take tea, take sugar in their tea, - and after a while I also followed suit and the first time I think it was the third year when I went there and they were making tea in the morning and I said “Oh no!, no, no sugar for me” and it was, “What! No sugar argh!” says “having sugar is like having a girlfriend without sex.” I said “What, oh dear!” so that’s, that’s another big thing which I’ve taken. I mean, after this day my, you know, I mean my brothers’ and sisters all, they’ve all died but the ones that were alive said “Joe doesn’t,- take sugar in his tea.” So, small things like that.
JW: Tell me about your – architecture practice, has you being African, of African descent has that actually influenced your, your design.
JB: Well – I mean when I set up my company as Architecture and Development as soon as I finished my - my post graduate diploma. I set up the company straight away – I called it Extra Design and Associates because I couldn’t set up, practise as an architect until I had done my final examin - exam. At that time I was sort of contracting out my services to companies. I am not an office person so I started doing that but because I actually trained – in the UK – the building regs and all the trips we’ve had to Europe and so on, especially the European, some of the European architecture is quite innovative – quite liberal. Whereas I think in the in UK it tends to be more traditional. – So, when at the end of the day really you take your architectural skills and listen to the client’s brief and try to come up with a design – that is innovative, energy efficient, looks nice but at the same time satisfies the client and the planning regulations. So but I mean that is quite a fine balance to strike. – Where you have got the structural license then at that point you can actually do something spectacular – glass is one of them and I know most people like folding door like these here. They are alright but when you fold them can you see the space taken away by the fold, sliding doors are probably the best in my opinion. So, its horses for courses, but the company that I have now which is based in the Enterprise Centre in west of Hull, I mean, that provides services to the – domestic market i.e. – the old and new houses, here and there, extensions some of them very, very high end extensions. Then on the housing side and that extends to affordable housing for housing associations. For example like right now we are doing about three projects for in communities, which is a - Bradford Housing Association. They took over the houses from - Bradford Council so we‘ve done three projects. One of them is actually starting on site, in a couple of weeks time there are twenty two units there, so that is quite exciting for us.
JW: Has moving to the UK lived up to expectations?
JB: I think in a way it has, after a while you sort of - - modify your- your- thoughts and so on and I think now – I’ve become quite - used to the environment. - I mean I have worked a very long time here now – but obviously being of ethnic minority sometimes you feel there’s some, maybe, not exactly, sometimes - because with – I suppose with racism there are probably maybe two kinds? There is one which is broad brush you know, they call you this and treat you that and you can deal with straight because you know it is like that. Then at the other end is one that is very subtle which is in the workplace which is in the institutions and so on which - you can never really pinpoint what the problem is. For example you might work very hard and you achieve this result, and get that result and everyone can see that result but for whatever reason it’s never really quite appreciated. It’s never really taken – or someone else takes the credit and so on. So you have to be like a bit over and above the board so for it to get into the system. – So - there’s that element and in my work really I try to give the very best service that I can – and yes you do get people who can perhaps think differently, for example you remember when we went to a job, I think it was out on the outskirts somewhere towards Withernsea and – I rang through made an appointment - 10 o’clock, I’ll be there in so on and so forth. - When I got there they couldn’t answer the door, they just could not answer the door – so then you say OK that’s one of those and off you go, yeah, but you - just carry on - yeah.
JW: Hull is a city on the up really at the moment would you agree?
JB: Oh yes Hull is a city on the up, I mean - from the time I came here in 1982, in my mind it has moved in leaps and bounds. - I mean in terms of developments who would have thought you would have the Deep, you know a stadium with us and lots of other new developments, city centre developments and now to cap it all we’ve got the City of Culture next year. That’s just – it’s really, really on the up,- you can see residential - areas actually mushrooming. You know like Kingswood for example. I mean that’s quite a successful – development. I mean, I’ve seen a housing scheme which is just across the river, now what do they call it, the Marina - that is another successful one. So all those I’ve seen those since I came here. So it is really on the up and it’s not just with those developments we are now getting more and more of other races as well. I’m sure we’ve had the, we had the Iraqis, the people from Kurdistan and all settled – in Hull. I think the Congolese - then we have got a huge number of African students as well, so it is, it has really quite changed. I mean before if I walked anywhere if you saw a black person you felt compelled to say “Hi”, you had to say ‘Hi’. These days you just pass each other, no “Hi”, no nothing, because there is so many of you. You know it’s quite - that is absolutely fantastic to see.
JW: Well what about your future, still on the up?
JB: Well I’m still practising architecture and I would like to carry on until I can’t do it anymore. I don’t - I, from where I stand, I love architecture that much that I can’t see myself retiring . Even if I retire I’ll probably remain a consultant to the firm if they are still there. I think it’s - because it affects peoples’ lives you know. I’ve done housing schemes for example for social housing, when it’s done and dusted you might take a long time to develop and so on but when we go back and see the residents in. I remember doing a scheme in York – this lady when we were handing over the keys she just couldn’t contain herself, she was just crying and I said, “Oh”. At first I thought there was something wrong – She said, “I’ve been on the waiting list for 15 years, and not only that, look at the three bedroomed house I’ve got” and she had three kids and three bedroomed house and high quality, warm and everything and when you see that, that in someone’s, you know, that really says yeah I’ve done something good here.
JW: Yes.
JB: By the same token there are those who just think everything they should be given to them, you know – you have a brand new house to move in. A week later, you know, to have to wipe your feet on the way out as opposed to going in and I say this was spanking brand new last time but now look at it, so yeah that’s on the social side. On the other high end side again, you know people live in a house and there perhaps there’s something wrong with it. Or maybe it might be alright and then you work on bringing light in it and bringing the outside inside and just transform it and you see the lifestyle changing around them. You know, outdoor becomes much more attractive. – I went to see – a house the other day and they had quite a huge garden and its all grass, its south facing and its all grass and yes they’ve got sliding doors opening out that way. But architecture isn’t just about buildings it’s about what you see from the – from the building. So I’ve done a design for them- which open these huge, because windows are – OK but if they are very high up to the ceiling you see more of the sky and it brings in more light. So I’ve done a design which just literally opens up the entire rear elevation and will introduce plants and movement and colour into the garden so. – It’s not built yet but they can see because our software can see things in 3D. So and the change it will make, it will– quite spectacular with a barbecue place which is covered, so you can see them using the outside more and more and, so it’s the change that architecture brings in people’s lives which I think is the critical bit – that I’m after.
JW: Absolutely lovely to chat with you Joe – I think you’ve built more than just houses in the time that you’ve spent in the UK. Really great to share your journey with you. Thank you for chatting to us.
JB: Thank you very much indeed.
Interviewer: Jerome Whittingham
Date: 22 July 2016
JW: Now I'm finding this project fascinating already.
JB: Right.
JW: Cause I'm getting to meet with people that I've, I simply don't know, I've never met you before.
JB: Right.
JW: So just for the benefit of the listeners, can you tell me your name, your full name?
JB: Yes, my name is - Joseph Matsweru Bvumburai.
JW: Excellent, I think we're gonna need to check the spelling of that yeah. And your, your connection to Africa is?
JB: Yeah, well my, I come from - central Africa obviously my parents came from Zimbabwe I was born in Zambia - which is where I was, I grew up.
JW: Yeah yeah.
JB: I had never been anywhere else - until I came here.
JW: So tell me about growing up in Zambia then.
JB: Oh well luckily I had a childhood, I mean at the time I was born it was during the - colonial days - obviously what was know as Apartheid in South Africa was actually prevalent throughout central Africa.
JW: What year was this?
JB: I was born in 1957, yeah so when I was a, Zambia came independent in 1964 but as a child I could remember – sort of going to the city centre you know, toilets for whites only.
JW: Really?
JB: And areas and even, even the shopping in the city centre you had the first class which was strictly reserved for whites and there would be the second class area which was for the - Asian community.
JW: OK. How old were you before that felt uncomfortable and you recognised that something wasn't quite right?
JB: I think I was probably perhaps about maybe nine or ten - well as a, as a young man you just thought maybe that's how the world is - but then obviously as you get a bit older and as your parents and uncles tell you stories then you begin to realise that it’s not quite right, yeah.
JW: So how does that feel for a nine, a nine year old, ten year old? How did that change your feelings at the time?
JB: - I don't think it changed feelings particularly because you're just born with it and gone, brought up within the area but as soon as you being to realise that you can't do certain things then you just begin to get like - a rebellious nature, in you and you say oh why can't I go in that toilet or this line, why can't I go into that line and so on, so you just, - begins to trigger some emotions - within you really.
JW: Yeah.
JB: Yeah.
JW: Where you a rebellious teenager?
JB: I don't think I particularly was but when it came to things that matter even though I was growing up then sometimes you had to stand up for what you believed in so and - yeah its - you just have to do what needs to be done - if there’s some sort of injustice in the system you try and – instead of rebel against it and try and correct it yeah.
JW: Yeah. Tell me about your family, your parents?
JB: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well my parents were born in - Zimbabwe - but my father was one of the probably first African drivers in - central Africa and - when he got his driving license, I think he got it in Zimbabwe as far I remember and - he was - a son of a Chief in a place called Chivi in - Zimbabwe and he was the first born of the second wife of the Chief. And at the time I think the Christian were sort of - most Scottish and Christians I mean most of central Africa was inhabited by the Scots people due to Doctor David Livingstone and the rest of the world was preaching about you know one man one wife sort of philosophy and my father being from the second wife was - I think the children of the second wife weren't treat that well because of the culture that was beginning to come around that time so he was a bit upset with the system and decided to leave Zimbabwe altogether and - came to Zambia and he got a job - with a company called Wenela and that job used to transport - workers from the Federation which was Rhodesia, Zambia and Malawi. They, you took them in the back of the truck all the way to South Africa and then bring the workers who were there for a while, then back through Zimbabwe, Zambia and Malawi yeah and my mother was a maid - for my dad’s boss so to speak - and I believe was born in one of those households - where we - lived in the servant quarters
JW: Did you ever meet your dad’s boss?
JB: No no no, well not that boss at the time. I came to meet other bosses afterwards my when I was sort of in - primary school, secondary school - most of them would have been South African born and so on quite successful white men who had trucks and so on and my dad being a driver he drove one of the trucks.
JW: Yeah. How old were you when you came over to the UK?
JB: I was twenty two.
JW: Twenty two?
JB: Yeah that was in September – 1982.
JW: Right so did you work in Africa? Did you have a job in Africa before you came over?
JB: Yes actually I started in - Architecture Technology because I've always wanted to become and Architect since I was a child and at the time there were no schools of Architecture. The nearest I could get was - a college which was run by the Canadians and - they did Architecture Technology which I believe is equivalent to the HND here.
So when I finished that I said yeah right I'm gonna open up my own practice and become successful - yes I finished the course and when I tried to open up my practice I just couldn't cause all the Architect firms were run by the Scottish you know sort of roles for British Architects and they had their own club.
JW: You found a wall preventing your access in?
JB: Yes yes, there was a very strong concrete high wall and the chap I worked for at the time a guy called Stuart Neil he said look Joe the only way if you want to draw you have to become an architect so I just sat down and applied to about 150 colleges and universities all over the world and - the very first one that - responded was the School of Architecture in Hull. So I'd got the position. My father couldn't afford to sponsor me and - I just sort of sat down and racked my brain and said oh. At that time I was living at Copperbelt in Zambia and I went to Lusaka and were just knocking on the embassies you know in the High Commissions and I would just knock and say, look I'm Joe Bvumburai, I've got a place to study for a degree in Architecture in Hull, can you sponsor me?
JW: Gosh.
JB: And obviously in those days were was no security, no cameras you just knock on the door, and they would let you in, who are you and - after about two days I was just giving up I think it was about half past three in the afternoon and I just thought I would knock on the Swedish Embassy and I went and knocked there and their eyes sort of lit up and said yeah yeah yeah I think we can do something for you, said really, er said yeah and they had what you call the Swedish International Development Agency - SIDA they call it and they were sponsoring students abroad via the Zambia Government so the chap there, I think it was the Educational Attaché he just scribbled a note and said her take this to the government office of such of such and they will arrange a scholarship and I went there and before I knew it they had actually write a cheque for seven thousand pounds said here three thousand pounds for your fees and four thousand pounds for you to live on.
JW: Gosh.
JB: And that how I came here.
JW and JB: (laugh)
JW: It’s just as easy to get funds these days.
JB: If only.
JW: So it must have felt like Christmas to you basically a real gift.
JB: Oh it just felt like I was in the seventh heaven it was absolutely you know the best news.
JW: Yeah.
JB: And I ran and told my mother. My mother wasn't particularly quite happy because we were really poor and was looking for me to start working and start looking and helping supporting the family - and because I lived in the Copperbelt I remember on the day of the – flight, one it was the first time I had been on a plane and I flew from Kitwe to Lusaka which is the capital city of Zambia and I stayed overnight in Lusaka at my mums and my mum couldn't understand why I had spent all this money you know on a plane, well I said I haven't spent it, it’s all part of the you know the scholarship because I think in her mind she said well if you come by bus the rest could have paid the rent or – so on but I had to explain to her that that was the situation.
JW: Yeah.
JB: So anyway I came here and I got a flight into London Heathrow. I remember as I was circling around Heathrow I could see these rows and rows of houses so I asked the chap sat next to me, I said what are those? He said, “what do you mean?”, I said “those straight houses”, he said, “oh they are houses” I said, “what houses?”, cause if you imagine all the white people I knew they lived in big mansions with yards and so on, so in my mind I thought that’s how all white people lived you know they all had mansions and they all had servants and so on, so at Heathrow I said no I'm gonna change my flight, instead of flying to Humberside I'll go by train and obviously as a - young child we, our education was - the curriculum was actually by the - Cambridge University and all the history we used to study was about London you know Westminster Abbey and so on and all those building and places just stuck in my head, so I wanted to see them so I actually said I'm going to go into London for a couple of days and visit all these places Big Ben and so on and yes true enough those long blocks that I was seeing were terraced houses and I couldn't see any big houses with mansions.
JW: So how were you feeling, then - at that time you head out into London for a couple of days having coming from Africa a young lad mid twenties?
JB: Yes twenty two, yeah.
JW: Just how did that feel?
JB: It was actually quite an experience because - I mean, with the whole place having been a colony of - Great Britain you are like you are coming to know almost like a motherland really, you know the place where everything advanced and so and everything happened and just to be in London the capital city for just an experience it was, it was just out of this world - while it was very cold and I was in a safari suit which was totally inappropriate and - oh it was just oh an experience I mean there were no emails or anything like that so I sat down and bought an – air letter, there were air letters then and wrote quickly as I, note to my parents arrived in London this and that, would you believe there is an underground train here said what an underground train so it was quite and experience the following day after about a couple of days I think it was - I then got a train to Humberside and that’s how I actually got to Hull yeah to study architecture.
JW: So, which year was this again?
JB: This was 1982.
JW:1982?
JB: Yes.
JW: OK, so cast your mind back to 1982, to Hull, as a city.
JB: Yes.
JW: ...and the area.
JB: Yes.
JW: Describe Hull for us in 1982.
JB: Well, first of all it as very different to London, obviously, - there was not as many buildings, not as many people. In London, as soon as you arrived, obviously, there were lots of, you know, ethnic – people – so and for me to see loads of, ethnic – because in Zambia all the people I had ever seen were just white, Asian and – black, those were the only two or three ethnicities I was sort of used to. Then you come to London and there was all sorts of – ethnic – minority people, then you come to Hull everyone you saw was just white.
JW: Yes.
JB: In fact, I remember after about a week I said “I am gonna walk into the town centre and just explore the town centre.” And, -, it was about 2 o’clock in the afternoon and I was walking on, on the Prospect Street and this chap called me and said, “Oh, oh, come, come here.” It was a butcher, said, I thought maybe he had something to tell me, said “oh, yea, yea, yes he passed by here at half past ten, he went that way.” I said, “Oh, who? Said “Oh, your brother, your brother” and that was the second person, second black person he had seen that day. Wow! This is, this is eh?
JW: So did that make you feel special or did that make you feel vulnerable?
JB: Oh well, I mean, at that time it made me, it made me feel quite special, because, I mean – you would go in a pub and you would be the only black person, you in the classroom, of course in the classroom there were quite a few -, - ethnic from Malaysia and so on, but when you were walking in the city centre and there is danger areas, you were literally the only black person and instantly begin to notice people looking at you. -, so sometime it would feel a bit special and, actually, did feel special for a while until someone started calling me names which, actually, took me by surprise and – they would call you this name and say “Oh did, did they actually say that” and you look at them. They actually saying it, so - right…
JW In what sort of scenario was that? Was that in a workplace?
JB: No, no, no. This was just walking in the street, not just, cause obviously, as a young man you are keen to, to, sort of explore the area where you are living. – that time I was living on Westbourne , Westbourne Avenue. – there it was alright cause loads of International students, Internationals where I live but the minute you come out of the Avenues area and start walking down Princes Avenue or, or Spring Bank, or, or in fact, outside those areas, away from the university hub – life was quite different and obviously, I used to do my martial arts and jogging was part of my training and you’d go jogging and every now and again I could almost guarantee that – every time I go jogging one or two people would call you a name. So, you sort of got used to that but – luckily I had some very good friends in the School of Architecture. I mean they welcomed me with, - you know, with - two hands. – they invited me into their homes and so on and, -, in fact I remember I didn’t know anything about rugby and my friends introduced me to rugby, watching rugby and I remember in 1982 to 83, I watched every black and whites game that was played. So, and that was quite an experience as well, yes, cause you would go to various places, by bus and – it was – it was just, just amazing. Yes.
JW: Which parts of – British culture, English culture – did you embrace most rapidly in?
JB: ...well first, first of all I didn’t know Christmas was a big thing around here – in Zambia some of the shops they would decorate them with some fluffy white bits. I have no idea what those fluffy white bits were – did not know shops did them and would just say “Oh! That’s supposed to be Christmas.” But when I came here, one day when -, - in the, in the School of Architecture, - it had snowed but when inside there was a lecture and then it was time to go home and I just noticed my, my friends weren’t there. So I sort of went round looking for them. They were nowhere to be seen, so I said, “Alright, okay, I will just go, go home.” But as I came out of the School of Archi… outside the whole world was white and within a second I could see all these balls coming at me, throwing snowballs and that was my first introduction to snow. So, so that was quite a fantastic, and then obviously around Christmas time, you know, everyone is quite happy and merry and – I think that culture is quite, is quite an amazing one. – so that was probably my first experience of – a British culture and lots of food and everyone seems to be in high spirits even though you had to attire yourself from toe to head with clothing, warm clothing otherwise you’d freeze.
JW: Did you get homesick at all?
JB: ...well the, the first year it was just full of - adventure, cause it – and not only that - as a school of, as a student they organised a trip to go to Italy by bus, - to go and see, you know, the renaissance architecture and so on. And again, that was an experience which I would never forget. - but I was al-always eager to go back and tell the stories and say look this is what I found and so on. - and I missed home in that regard and I also missed the sun cause the cold I, I couldn’t get used to the cold, cause sometimes you forget, you know, when you are in your room there’s the radiator on and you make a mistake of, “Oh! I am just going to buy some bread.” You come out without wearing anything but no sooner had you opened the front door –“ right I have to go and get my coat and gloves.”
JW: So how long did it take you to acclimatize?
JB: I... I am still trying to.
JW: You’re still trying?
JB: Yes! So that, that was the sort of the homesick bit which I would miss and -, obviously, the foods were quite different here, - and so on, and you, I learned how to eat a lot of chips and fish and chips. - a colleague that was a close friend of mine liked Chinese. So would buy Chinese food, say, “So but Chinese is not British is it?” So would eat that and so on, yes and then -, - come the summer, you know, when the end of first year, couldn’t wait to go back home. –for this, - and when I got back home I had an uncle whom you could just spend five minutes telling him a story but then you would spend another three hours telling the same story to everybody else and then I remember when, when I got home -, obviously, I was, I was tired from the flight and everything and – first of all here they start work at nine, over there they start work at seven in the morning. So that was a big difference. Now here I said “Nine that’s, that’s easy and you finish work at five instead of seven and finish about five, half past five, so, and, and in the morning when I was waking up that day my brother came to wake me up and says, “Oh, it’s time” and I say “But it’s only about seven, why do you, why do, you know, just give me about half an hour.” So he say, “Oh alright, OK for now.” Then after that he came back – again and knocked and so in the end I had to wake up and then I got outside and there was like a huge crowd outside our house and my uncle, the storyteller, he was right next to me. Evidently I was the first one in that residential area, - which was mostly council housing, to have actually gone abroad, - to England and -, - everyone knew about England although, they’d never been there so they were waiting. I mean my uncle had told a bit about the underground trains, you know, the tubes. He had already spread the word, - so when the people came they wanted to hear it from the horse’s mouth - and I was quite taken aback but they, - they was asking me all sorts of questions, you know and – I just sat there and talked and talked and talked, I mean I could talk for England as well – but...
JW: You’re great to interview, that’s for sure. So – what – of your African upbringing have you sort of brought to the UK and continued? So, have you got any sort of African – culture that you continue – over here?
JB: I think, say when, when we were growing up my mother always used to say that “Look! education, education, education.” It was the only way out of poverty, - in Africa, - and she just instilled in us that much that – if you didn’t go to school then really, well, in fact, her example was that if you don’t go to school you end up cleaning toilets and sweeping in the streets and so on. And those were regarded as the lowest jobs you could think, especially cleaning toilets and – so that culture, that really has been instilled in me – to the extent that I shall set a rule that look, when my children were being born and they started going to school said “Look in this house everybody has to get a degree whether you like it or not.” I mean, there, there are things like just, just other things like, in Africa, we are told to wash once a day. For example, I remember we shared this, a room with some students and every morning I would be in the shower room and they would be asking “Why is he in the shower room every morning?” I said “Well that’s what you do, you have a shower every morning.” And then they’ll just go there and take a wet towel and thing - and I just found that extremely strange.
JW: Have you taken any of – English culture or UK culture back to Africa in you visits?
JB: Yes. Timekeeping.
JW: Timekeeping?
JB: Yes.
JW: You were bang on the nail today.
JB: If anything was – obvious I had African time for very long time and in fact I had it until I started my own company -, - you know, when I used to look for other people, go for a meeting and I would be late and everyone would be either upset or so and I couldn’t see why they were upset. So when I was late, I mean, I was just “Look I’m just late, just late” you know, ten minutes, fifteen minutes, sometimes half an hour late to meetings, - but afterward when you start your own company you just begin to realise how precious time is and – in Africa we only half, only late by half an hour. That’s no big deal really, we could be waiting for an hour – and if you are lucky they turn up, maybe they might come up to two hours later and you don’t even talk or discuss it, - that’s one thing. The other thing is customer care. Most of the time you go to a shop and you find the shop assistant is talking to a friend and they won’t stop talking to a friend to serve you. You have got to wait till that conversation is over then says, “Oh! Can I help you?” Then they just take the things and put the change on there, then they start talking to… That, that really gets on my nerves. So that bit I would take back to Africa and then that thing was drinking tea at any time. My dad was a tea drinker cause he used to work for the Scottish bosses and so on and every morning he would have tea but would only drink it in the morning, no other time – and then in the afternoon, - I would say “Oh! Can I have a cup of tea?” because I had become used to drinking tea and he’d say “Joe, he’s asking for tea in the afternoon, something’s wrong with him.” -, so those are some of the things I’ve. I’ve sort of, I did take back, -, - it’s, it’s quite amazing. Small things but which make an impact and the other thing I discovered is not many people take tea, take sugar in their tea, - and after a while I also followed suit and the first time I think it was the third year when I went there and they were making tea in the morning and I said “Oh no!, no, no sugar for me” and it was, “What! No sugar argh!” says “having sugar is like having a girlfriend without sex.” I said “What, oh dear!” so that’s, that’s another big thing which I’ve taken. I mean, after this day my, you know, I mean my brothers’ and sisters all, they’ve all died but the ones that were alive said “Joe doesn’t,- take sugar in his tea.” So, small things like that.
JW: Tell me about your – architecture practice, has you being African, of African descent has that actually influenced your, your design.
JB: Well – I mean when I set up my company as Architecture and Development as soon as I finished my - my post graduate diploma. I set up the company straight away – I called it Extra Design and Associates because I couldn’t set up, practise as an architect until I had done my final examin - exam. At that time I was sort of contracting out my services to companies. I am not an office person so I started doing that but because I actually trained – in the UK – the building regs and all the trips we’ve had to Europe and so on, especially the European, some of the European architecture is quite innovative – quite liberal. Whereas I think in the in UK it tends to be more traditional. – So, when at the end of the day really you take your architectural skills and listen to the client’s brief and try to come up with a design – that is innovative, energy efficient, looks nice but at the same time satisfies the client and the planning regulations. So but I mean that is quite a fine balance to strike. – Where you have got the structural license then at that point you can actually do something spectacular – glass is one of them and I know most people like folding door like these here. They are alright but when you fold them can you see the space taken away by the fold, sliding doors are probably the best in my opinion. So, its horses for courses, but the company that I have now which is based in the Enterprise Centre in west of Hull, I mean, that provides services to the – domestic market i.e. – the old and new houses, here and there, extensions some of them very, very high end extensions. Then on the housing side and that extends to affordable housing for housing associations. For example like right now we are doing about three projects for in communities, which is a - Bradford Housing Association. They took over the houses from - Bradford Council so we‘ve done three projects. One of them is actually starting on site, in a couple of weeks time there are twenty two units there, so that is quite exciting for us.
JW: Has moving to the UK lived up to expectations?
JB: I think in a way it has, after a while you sort of - - modify your- your- thoughts and so on and I think now – I’ve become quite - used to the environment. - I mean I have worked a very long time here now – but obviously being of ethnic minority sometimes you feel there’s some, maybe, not exactly, sometimes - because with – I suppose with racism there are probably maybe two kinds? There is one which is broad brush you know, they call you this and treat you that and you can deal with straight because you know it is like that. Then at the other end is one that is very subtle which is in the workplace which is in the institutions and so on which - you can never really pinpoint what the problem is. For example you might work very hard and you achieve this result, and get that result and everyone can see that result but for whatever reason it’s never really quite appreciated. It’s never really taken – or someone else takes the credit and so on. So you have to be like a bit over and above the board so for it to get into the system. – So - there’s that element and in my work really I try to give the very best service that I can – and yes you do get people who can perhaps think differently, for example you remember when we went to a job, I think it was out on the outskirts somewhere towards Withernsea and – I rang through made an appointment - 10 o’clock, I’ll be there in so on and so forth. - When I got there they couldn’t answer the door, they just could not answer the door – so then you say OK that’s one of those and off you go, yeah, but you - just carry on - yeah.
JW: Hull is a city on the up really at the moment would you agree?
JB: Oh yes Hull is a city on the up, I mean - from the time I came here in 1982, in my mind it has moved in leaps and bounds. - I mean in terms of developments who would have thought you would have the Deep, you know a stadium with us and lots of other new developments, city centre developments and now to cap it all we’ve got the City of Culture next year. That’s just – it’s really, really on the up,- you can see residential - areas actually mushrooming. You know like Kingswood for example. I mean that’s quite a successful – development. I mean, I’ve seen a housing scheme which is just across the river, now what do they call it, the Marina - that is another successful one. So all those I’ve seen those since I came here. So it is really on the up and it’s not just with those developments we are now getting more and more of other races as well. I’m sure we’ve had the, we had the Iraqis, the people from Kurdistan and all settled – in Hull. I think the Congolese - then we have got a huge number of African students as well, so it is, it has really quite changed. I mean before if I walked anywhere if you saw a black person you felt compelled to say “Hi”, you had to say ‘Hi’. These days you just pass each other, no “Hi”, no nothing, because there is so many of you. You know it’s quite - that is absolutely fantastic to see.
JW: Well what about your future, still on the up?
JB: Well I’m still practising architecture and I would like to carry on until I can’t do it anymore. I don’t - I, from where I stand, I love architecture that much that I can’t see myself retiring . Even if I retire I’ll probably remain a consultant to the firm if they are still there. I think it’s - because it affects peoples’ lives you know. I’ve done housing schemes for example for social housing, when it’s done and dusted you might take a long time to develop and so on but when we go back and see the residents in. I remember doing a scheme in York – this lady when we were handing over the keys she just couldn’t contain herself, she was just crying and I said, “Oh”. At first I thought there was something wrong – She said, “I’ve been on the waiting list for 15 years, and not only that, look at the three bedroomed house I’ve got” and she had three kids and three bedroomed house and high quality, warm and everything and when you see that, that in someone’s, you know, that really says yeah I’ve done something good here.
JW: Yes.
JB: By the same token there are those who just think everything they should be given to them, you know – you have a brand new house to move in. A week later, you know, to have to wipe your feet on the way out as opposed to going in and I say this was spanking brand new last time but now look at it, so yeah that’s on the social side. On the other high end side again, you know people live in a house and there perhaps there’s something wrong with it. Or maybe it might be alright and then you work on bringing light in it and bringing the outside inside and just transform it and you see the lifestyle changing around them. You know, outdoor becomes much more attractive. – I went to see – a house the other day and they had quite a huge garden and its all grass, its south facing and its all grass and yes they’ve got sliding doors opening out that way. But architecture isn’t just about buildings it’s about what you see from the – from the building. So I’ve done a design for them- which open these huge, because windows are – OK but if they are very high up to the ceiling you see more of the sky and it brings in more light. So I’ve done a design which just literally opens up the entire rear elevation and will introduce plants and movement and colour into the garden so. – It’s not built yet but they can see because our software can see things in 3D. So and the change it will make, it will– quite spectacular with a barbecue place which is covered, so you can see them using the outside more and more and, so it’s the change that architecture brings in people’s lives which I think is the critical bit – that I’m after.
JW: Absolutely lovely to chat with you Joe – I think you’ve built more than just houses in the time that you’ve spent in the UK. Really great to share your journey with you. Thank you for chatting to us.
JB: Thank you very much indeed.