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Mary Cooper
At the age of five years old, Mary was transported alone across the seas from St Lucia to Southampton into the arms of her family who she had been separated from at age three months. She talks about her passion for learning, her strict Afro-Caribbean Catholic upbringing and the sense of isolation from her wider family. She reveals how her experiences have led her to become a different person.
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Transcription: Mary Cooper Interview
Interview with Mary Cooper
Interviewer: Jerome Whittingham
Date: 27 September 2016
JW: First and foremost then, can you introduce yourself to the listener, your full name and your connections.
MC: Hello, my name is Mary Regina Cooper - I’m originally from St. Lucia in the Caribbean, I came to London as, about, a five-year old.
JW: Let’s sort of leap right back then, have you got any memories at all, of St. Lucia?
MC: Oh gosh, yes. I remember it was the happiest time of my life really, because I didn’t know there was another world out there.
JW: Can we put a date on it?
MC: I was born in 1958, so from 1958 till I was about five, five and a half I think, I lived in St. Lucia. Like I said it was like I didn’t realise there was another world out there, I thought this was it. I grew up with my grandmother who I thought was my mum because my mum left me in St. Lucia with her. She came to London to, with my dad, you know, when everybody was coming to England in the sixties to find work and things like that so they, I don’t know why she left me, didn’t take me with her. I didn’t know and I had a brother because when they came to London she got pregnant and had my brother. So I didn’t know I had a family until, like, oh my gosh, it would have been just out of the blue, one day my Gran said “Right, we’re going to stay with some relatives in another village and then you’re going on a ship”, and I thought, I thought, “What she talking about?”. And then in the very early hours of the morning she took me on this huge ship, never seen one before because we lived, like, in a little, it was like a rainforest area where I was brought up, and then I came to this capital, which was Castries, in St. Lucia, and she took me to the docks, there was all these huge ships, it was mind-blowing for a five-year old really, and she just took me up the stairs, put me on the boat and said “Bye, you’re going to meet your family”, and I thought “I thought you were my family”, it just came as a massive shock. I couldn’t speak English, everybody was talking around me, she just left me with these people saying, I think she said “Look after her, take care of her, because she’s going to meet her family”. And I didn’t know what they were saying to me and I got freaked-out, can you imagine, as a five-year old, freaked-out, and I started running around the ship, trying to find a way out, basically. Yeah, and then they grabbed me, two women grabbed me, I think they must have been stewards or whatever you call them, and they took me to the children’s area, like a cabin area, and they actually tied me to the cabin, to my cabin bed, because they thought I was going to jump out of the window or something. They tied me to this bed. So I was, like, traumatized, from being like the happiest time of my life, then traumatized, there were other children running around and I was tied to the bed. And I remember my Gran gave me like a gold necklace. I remember this blue plastic box, I think that’s why pale blue is my favourite colour now, she gave me this huge, blue plastic box and I opened it up and she said “It’s for your brother, it’s full of sweets and things like that”. But the kids ripped it open, took everything out because I couldn’t stop them, I was tied to the bed, one little boy ripped my gold necklace off, I think it was a St. Christopher, ripped it off me and there was nothing I could do because I was tied to this bed for about, I don’t know, it seemed like an eternity but it probably wasn’t because I was five and when you’re five it seems like an eternity, but it was probably about ten, fifteen minutes. But then gradually I got used to everything, I got used to it. I quite enjoyed my time on the ship really, it was really, really happy time once I relaxed and realised what was happening.
I really enjoyed it and then when we docked in Southampton there was these three strangers waiting for me, my mum, my dad, my brother, and I thought again, I was freaked-out again because it was just, I thought “What is going on?”, you know, but again, as a child, you get used to things quite quickly, so by the time I got home, I couldn’t speak English, so I couldn’t converse with my brother because St. Lucia was a mixture of French and English, because St. Lucia was taken over by the Dutch, the French, the English, so it was a real mixture, a patois they called it, so I could converse with my parents but not with my brother. But at that age you suck things up really quickly so I learnt to speak English in no time. I remember, maybe a couple of weeks after I arrived, I started school, I couldn’t speak much English then, but by the time, you know, I was in school I picked up the language in no time and apparently everybody said I spoke beautifully, I spoke English really well, the way it should be spoken, you know, and yeah, that was my beginnings, really, in England.
JW: Gosh, what a journey.
MC: Yes, I need to write a book, I think.
JW: You do, you do, you’re beginning the process by sharing with us. I can’t even imagine what that would feel like as a five, six-year old being, so to speak, taken away. How soon did you realise that you were not going to go back to St. Lucia?
MC: I think virtually straight away, I think by the time I got home, I think my parents told me this is where you’re living, this is … you’re not going to go back again, not going to see the person I thought was my mum. I thought “I’m never going to see her again” but as a child you kind of, you do you just adapt, I just adapted really and got on with stuff and unfortunately my grandmother she passed away before I had time to even go back, it was maybe two, three years after I was in London that she passed away, so that was quite sad because, you know, I would liked to have seen her, before that really, but I didn’t get the chance, so, yeah.
JW: So you never had any inkling really that your parents, your real mum, was over in the UK, it was never really talked about?
MC: I didn’t know, my Gran never spoke about them, I didn’t know there was an outside world out there, I just thought this was my little world, I don’t understand why I wasn’t, nobody told me what was going on, why my parents left me there and went to London, you know, and I’d be leaving St. Lucia one day to go and meet them. I was just not told anything and I don’t get that.
JW: So how did the relationships with your brother and your parents develop then?
MC: It was a, my brother and I, we sort of like, I think my brother, the first couple of weeks I think he resented the fact that he was no longer the only child. I’m not sure if he knew that I existed, I never really, that’s one thing I don’t think we ever talked about, - but we just got on and, and we are really, really, really close now, you know. He lives and works abroad, he works in the United Arab Emirates so we’ve not, we’ve not seen each other for about, oh gosh, it must be about my mother’s funeral, about ten years ago since we saw each other but we talk to each other all the time on Facebook and Messenger and that, and it’s like we’ve never left each other, we are very, very close. I mean we really liked each other as children growing up, we got on really well, you know, I liked him not just ‘cos he’s my brother, I liked him as a person, we got on really, really well. With my parents it was a bit strange, I think again, because I think my mother left me when I was about three months old so we never got that bonding that you need, you know, mother and baby, so it was really, really strained and it continued that way throughout my whole life really, you know, there was never, she was, her and my brother were very, very close, which is understandable, - but we never got that closeness and again she passed away we still were not very, very close and the same thing with my father, we just, I think because I probably was a stranger to them, to me I was a stranger and it never felt like it should do, you know what I mean? There was always, I felt as if there was always a barrier there, but they both passed away now, but yeah, never really got the opportunity to talk about stuff like that, you know, you just, as I said, as a child you just accept things and you grow up, you know, and from my teenage years - and my adulthood, you know, we just never discussed things, I don’t think people from the Caribbean, or people of Afro-Caribbean descent, I don’t think we really discuss things like we should, I don’t know why, there’s always, I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, maybe it was just my family.
JW: Let’s find out a little bit more about your interests as a child, then. What was school life like, what sort of activities did you get involved with?
MC: I loved school, I loved everything about school, I loved it, I embraced it. I always looked forward to going to school, I hated coming home, when it was time to go home I just didn’t want to go home. I loved school, I could never understand when people say they hated school, I loved every minute of it. I got involved in, you know, loads of sports, I was really good at sports, I used to do a lot of cross-country running and distance running, I loved everything about school, I couldn’t find anything, I wasn’t very good at maths, that was the only thing that I thought “Oh gosh, I hate my maths lessons”, but apart from that I loved everything about school.
JW: So, so later teenage years, rebellious years? Were you a rebellious child?
MC: Well, no. No. My parents were very, very strict, had a very strict Catholic, Afro-Caribbean up-bringing. I think Afro-Caribbean parents tend to be really strict with their kids, especially with the girls, I think, so I was never allowed to go out with my mates and you know, do the things that you do as a teenager, go out to parties and discos and whatever, I was never allowed to do that. I had to go to school, home, school, home, school, home, that was my life really and yeah, I suppose I did resent that because my mates were always saying “Oh, you coming, should we go to see a film tonight? Should we do this, do that? And I knew I couldn’t go as if I asked my parents anyway and I knew what the answer would be, it was always “No”, so I said to my friends, look don’t bother asking, I’m not allowed, and I don’t know why my parents were like that, they were like that with my brother as well, he wasn’t really allowed to do a lot, to be honest, which was very strange because usually, you know, boys are allowed to do a little bit more, but, my parents like I said, my parents were really, really strict, they wouldn’t, it was almost as if they was afraid to let us go out and find ourselves, know what I mean?, go see the world and find who we are, it’s like they just wanted to keep us in this, I don’t know, wrapped up. I don’t know if that’s with every Afro-Caribbean family but I do know it happened in mine.
JW: How would you describe that Afro-Caribbean character, you mentioned the strictness, you said that earlier that Afro-Caribbean families don’t talk in any depth?
MC: I’m just wondering whether it was the way they were brought up and that’s all they knew, so they thought that’s the way to do it and bring the kids up that way, but, but I remember thinking in my teenage years and my early sort of twenties “Right, if ever I get children, have children, get married and that, I’m going to do the total opposite”, which I did. I’ve got three girls and, to be frank, they walk all over me, I mean, I’ve brought them up to be respectful, they know right from wrong, but I’ve always allowed them to find their feet, you know, my girls started going out like, you know, like maybe they were fourteen, fifteen, they’d go into town with their mates, things like that, go to the cinema, sleepovers, all the things that I was never allowed to do, I thought “Right, my girls are doing it!” and they did and I think I’ve got three really level-headed, very intelligent, very focussed, hardworking young ladies.
JW: Have you ever looked much further back in your family’s history?
MC: I haven’t, I would like to because, yeah, I really would but the thing because is the way, my parents, they kind of tended to just keep us to themselves, we never really saw much, I know my mother came, she had quite a large family and most of her relatives lived in Paddington in London. But we never saw them very much. It was like, I think my dad, my dad didn’t want us, I don’t know why, he just wouldn’t allow us to go and mix with the relatives and that. I think he was a very controlling man. I think he just wanted us all to himself so we never got to know her side of the family very well.
His side of the family, he’s only one of, he’s got a brother and he’d got a sister. And his brother lived near us , my uncle lived near us and he had kids so they were like the only family we knew so me and my brother played with my three cousins because they lived down the road so they were only, they were like the only part of the family that we saw and conversed with, you know, they came to our house for dinner, we went to theirs for dinner but it was my mother’s side of the family that he seem to keep us away from them and I don’t know why. And I think, I think my mother wasn’t very happy about that because whenever they had an argument or fell out, first place she’d go to was Paddington to be with her relatives, I think she felt safe with them but my father use to drive to Paddington and bring her back, do you know what I mean but I think, you know, I think she resented that, that he wouldn’t allow us to mix with her side of the family and I don’t know why. I never asked it was just accepted things as they were you know what I mean.
JW: Yes, yeah. But how about much, much, much further back in a century or so. Have can do these sort of genetic tests these days can’t you where you can have, have your genes mapped to see what part of the world you come from.
MC: I would love to do that because I just don’t know what part, where my ancestor lie but I do remember my Gran she was, because my girls are mixed race and they remind me of her especially my middle daughter because she was, my Gran was tall, really long limbed, she used to wear her hair in a long plait down here and she was very olive skinned and my girls are, so I’m thinking is there some sort of like Asian or Mediterranean blood in me somewhere because my girls, nobody believed that they’re mixed race, they just assume that they are from like Thailand or you know they’ve got you know some Asian blood in them because they look Asian. Great big brown eyes, long dark brown hair, they’ve got that olive skin, tall and slim so there must be some Asian blood or something somewhere along the line, there has to be, really, yeah not just Afro-Caribbean there has to be some Asian in there somewhere.
JW: what sort of questions have your girls put to you about sort of family?
MC: I mean they have asked, I mean they do say, you know, how come we’re the colour that we are and I say it’s because my Gran was the same colour as you – they don’t really know my side of the family really because I don’t know my side of the family so they only know my brother, they don’t know anybody else because you know, when I said , if I went back, because I’ve never been to St Lucia, I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for my family because we never kept in touch, parent, so I wouldn’t know where to begin to search my ancestry to be honest with you.
JW: Did you ever chat with your Gran about – sort of ambitions and dreams for your future?
MC: No because like I said I was only like, you know small. I was 5 years old so I never went to school, the first time I went to school was when I came to London so, no, I just, I never thought about the future. I don’t think you do at that, I know some children know from the moment they’re born they know what they wanna be because my, my eldest daughter she knew what she wanted to be when she was like about that high, I wanna be a performer, she is now but you know, I, no I didn’t, I just lived from day to day, I didn’t think about the future, I didn’t know there was a future out there, if you see what I mean.
JW: What were your parent’s expectations and ambitions for you?
MC: I think my parents, you know they wanted me to work hard at school which I did, you know, I think they wanted me to just do well and find a good job and, maybe get married and settle down. I think, you know, they didn’t want me and my brother to hang out on street corners and not do anything with our lives. They always wanted us to, education was always very important in my house. Like I said it was school and back, school and back, homework, do you know what I mean. School reports are very important they read them, you know, made sure that we were doing what we were meant to be doing at school. So yeah, education was really, really, really important to my parents. Because maybe they didn’t have much of an education, education themselves so I don’t, because my parents I remember they, they couldn’t really read and write properly. They could just about so my brother and I used to like if they got letters we used to read the letters and say what it was about. If the letters came from wherever, you know we used to say, oh it’s from the bank or you know, or wherever it was from. You know we used to read it to them and if they wanted to write letters like, I remember, you know if they wanted to write letters to send to St Lucia they wrote the letters for them. Do you know what I mean. Yeah so education was very important to them.
JW: So how, how come you ended up in Hull?
MC: Like I said, I met my husband at the, he like I said he’s from Hull, came to London, we happened to be working in the same place and he asked me if I wanted to come to Hull with him and I went – alright . I’d near even heard of Hull at the time. I went yeah okay and I’ve been here ever since. I’ve been here since 1985 so I’ve lived in Hull much longer than I lived in London really. – yeah 1985 I came to Hull and settled here but unfortunately we are no longer together but I mean, well we’re ok, we speak and everything but when you’ve got children together, you’ve got to keep it friendly haven’t you.
JW: So what did you think about Hull when you arrived here?
MC: Me I was shocked because London is so busy, so fast, cars everywhere. When I first came to Hull in ’85 there were hardly, the first thing I said to him was where’s all the traffic? He goes that’s it, you know that seeing the traffic now when I first arrived I’m thinking it’s just like London but at the time it wasn’t, it really shocked me. It was hardly any traffic. I remember that I’m thinking this is awful, where’d the cars, where’s the traffic because that’s it, this is what people, you know that obviously people are more affluent now I guess and everybody’s got cars now the traffic is no different than it is in London now.
JW: And what about changes you’ve noticed in Hull and the surrounding area over, over the years?
MC: I’ve noticed that you know when I first arrived there wasn’t many Black faces in Hull to be honest but I guess since the university opened and everything you get more Black people in Hull but at the time – I think I was lucky if I saw maybe one or two in a week.
JW: How did that make you feel?
MC: I was alright about it really because when I arrive in Hull everybody was so friendly. His side of the family when I first met them and people in the street. People, I just thought that people were, really, really friendly. Much more friendlier than they are in London. I mean in London everybody is rushing to get from A to B. nobody has got the time of day for you. Nobody smiles, says ‘Hello’. I mean we lived in the same house and – we hardly knew our neighbours, you know what I mean. Nobody would speak to each other in London really but Hull everybody, you stand at a bus stop, everybody says ‘Hi, how are you doing’ and in London if you try and say hello to anybody at a bus stop they’d think you’re a freak do you know what I mean. But no I just found Hull really, really inviting and it was so chilled out, so relaxed I just find the pace of life in Hull compared to the pace of life in, no I’d never live in London again, never. It’s just, when I used to go to visit when my parents were alive, we’d visit , I used to think, “Oh God, let me just get back to Hull please, I need to get back to Hull for the peace and quiet and tranquillity of Hull”, you know, I love it in Hull, you know seeing, you know the BBC building coming up and everything that’s happening in Hull at the moment, it’s just, it’s just wonderful, it’s you know I’m thinking it’s, it’s much more cosmopolitan than it is, I mean like Prince’s Avenue and Newland Avenue, it’s like being abroad sometimes, you know it’s all the coffee bars and everything. I just love it. I think that Hull is, when, when I hear people slagging Hull off, I think, “No”, I love it in Hull absolutely love living in Hull. Seriously.
JW: Do your daughters have the same feeling?
MC: My eldest she’s real Hull girl. She, she’ll never move out of Hull. She was in Pop Idol when she was 16. She did really well in Pop Idol so she had to stay in London while she was in it and she hated it. She was so homesick. She couldn’t wait to get back. But my middle daughter and the youngest, I think the youngest she’ll eventually she wants to live in Florida and I think my middle daughter might want to live abroad because her and her boyfriend were talking about going to Canada so those two possibly would, will leave Hull but my eldest, no, she’s a real Hull girl, yeah she won’t leave Hull, yeah she’s got, she’s just had a child and she’s got a partner and her child so there’s no way she’s going to leave Hull, no.
JW: I find it interesting that young people in particular - seem to, seem to feel - or describe themselves as being from a wider geography. So, you know my, my two, I’ve got two teenage boys, they’ve travelled much more widely than me…
MC: Right, yeah.
JW: …then their sort of younger generations, don’t seem to have recognise boundaries quite as much.
MC: Yeah absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve always encouraged my girls, you know, I said “look, Hull is just one part of the world, there’s a huge world out there, you need to go and see the world, travel.” And that’s my one regret really, that I didn’t travel. I’ve always wanted to, but just never the opportunity, the means, and then I met my husband, and then we had children, and then I had work, you know, and things get in the way. Life gets in the way and I never travel.
I still want to though. I’m still intending to travel now that the girls have grown up and everything. I’m determined to travel. So I’m always saying to my girls, “You need to travel, just, don’t just stay in Hull, there’s a huge world out there.” But like I said my eldest, nah she’s not. I mean she has travelled, she has gone, you know, abroad. She’s been to several counties. My two younger ones, they’re definitely gonna go traveling, yeah.
JW: Have any of them been back to St Lucia?
MC: No, none of us - have been back to St Lucia but I’d love one day to take the girls to St Lucia, just to show them, you know, where I was from, because they for…you know, they quite often say to me, “You came from St Lucia, it’s such a beautiful place, what are you doing here?” I said, “Well, you know, I had no choice at the time, I had to come to London.” But yeah, I would love to take them. We talk about it all the time to be honest, to go back. I just want them to see where I was from. Yeah I think it important for them to get to know their roots really. -
JW: - So what your career been? What have you been involved with work wise, a whole mixture or?
MC: I’ve done all sorts really. I’ve done cleaning. I’ve worked in shops. I’ve done one week in a factory, which I thought I was gonna die, it was the worst thing ever. But when you need money, you know, you’d do any job, just to keep the roof over your head, but never again. I really admire people who work in factories and stay in factories because, I just don’t think they’re treated right to be honest, you know what I mean. So yeah shop work, factory work, I’ve worked behind bars, I’ve done lots of admin work, and I’m doing admin at the moment, you know, can’t stand it, but again, you know, you’ve got to pay your bills haven’t you?
JW: Yeah, and you’re quite connected with the cultural scene in Hull, the art scene?
MC: Absolutely, I mean, when I first arrived in Hull, I joined - Hull Truck when they had- the new theatre, and I’ve done several productions, I can’t remember it now, it was a long time ago. I’ve done productions at Hull Truck, with Hull Truck – Lynne Taylor, I did a one woman show for her, again that was years ago. She wrote a one woman play, asked me to do it - and I’ve done some stuff with Mike, you know, since the last time I’ve done any work - productions, that was the last one I did, for Mike, that Derby Day, yeah. I mean but, if I, my ideal world, is to work, because I did a media degree, broadcast media, you know, basically behind the scenes really. I would love to get a job working behind the scenes, either in television or film, you know, I mean, I’m, don’t particularly want to be in front of the camera, I mean I don’t know maybe, I mean, I’ve always been interested in - investigative journalism and I wish that’s what I’d done instead rather than, you know, just a broadcast media. It didn’t touch journalism really, because I love documentaries. I love, watching, you know, anything, you know, documentaries about, you know, what’s happening outside in the world and that. So I would have loved to have gone that way. You know.
JW: What aspects would you want to investigate yourself?
MC: - I’m quite fascinated about the homeless, what happening with the homeless, you know, I would love to do that, and - prostitution as well, you know, the young ladies who work on the streets. I’d really love to get to know how they got onto the streets, why? You know what I mean. Same with the homeless, I think, how did you get to that position? Surely you’ve got family and friends who could have taken you in? You know what I mean. I could never understand how people become homeless. I’d love to get into that, you know, what brought them onto the streets, why didn’t they look for help, maybe they didn’t want help, I don’t know, maybe they haven’t got family? I don’t know but it does fascinate me as to how they become homeless, so yeah.
JW: What are your thoughts about freedom, living in Wilberforce’s city? What are your thoughts about freedom?
MC: As in...sorry?
JW: Well I mean, you’ve mentioned that if you’re an investigative journalism, journalist, you’d like to look at prostitution, so those - girls, and how there is, sort of, slaved, enslaved really.
MC: Oh absolutely, I mean, for, you know, because we’ve got, you know, Wilberforce is in Hull, it’s all about, you know, freedom and emancipation, but you think, why is it still going on? You know what I mean? You’d think, a city like Hull, it’d be…maybe I don’t know. It might be hard for the ‘powers that be’ to get people off the streets, to get people homes and get the girls off the streets, young ladies off the street. But it just seems a shame that, you know, the home of emancipation and freedom, and there is still people who are.
There is still slavery going on all over the world in the twenty-first century. You know, you’ve got the sex trade, you’ve got what’s happening at the moment with the boat people, you know these people risking their lives, their babies and children’s lives, you know, they’re trying to find a better world for themselves. You know, and you think in the twenty-first century this should not be happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Why are the ‘powers that be’ allowing this to happen, with everything that’s happening in Syria and when we, last year we saw all those people trekking through all kind of weathers with their babies in their arms trying to get away from war torn countries, risking their lives and I’m thinking, this is the twenty-first century. This should not be happening. It’s almost like biblical times. I was watching these people trekking down these train lines. It reminded me of, you know, Exodus when the Israelites were leaving Egypt, and I’m thinking, this can’t be happening, you know, but, but what do you do about it, I just don’t know. I mean, okay I give to certain charities and that but I think, what good, are they really receiving they money that I’ve sent, do you what I mean, to get them blankets and, blankets and shoes and coats and I’m thinking, I hope my donation is getting through to these people. But it is, it’s like biblical times and it shouldn’t be happening, really.
JW: What do you think your life would be like if you’d never left St Lucia?
MC: I have no idea, I don’t know. I’m hoping I would have gone to school eventually, because I enjoy learning. So I’m hoping I would have gone to school. I have no idea. I mean, I don’t know. I might, because I’ve always been interested in caring as well, so maybe I might have been ended up as a nurse, something like that, or a teacher, I’m not sure. But, I’ve no idea to be honest, no idea. I’ve not really given it a lot of thought. What would I have, what type of person, I’m hoping I’d have still been who I am, the person, do you know’ I mean, the essence of who I am now. I’m hoping, because who you are is who you are, no matter where you live, or what century, even if I was born in Tudor times, I’m still hoping that I’d still be Mary, do you know what I’m saying. Do you understand where I’m coming from? So I don’t know. I don’t know. I probably would have been in some kind of caring profession I reckon, probably a nurse, yeah.
JW: What are your hopes for your future, for yourself and for your family?
MC: Well, for myself like I said, I’m hoping, because I’m getting on a bit, so I’m hoping to travel, that’s what I want to do, I want to see the world before I die, I really do. I don’t want to be on my deathbed and thinking, “Oh Mary you didn’t travel, you didn’t go see the world, you wanted to do this, you wanted to see this and you didn’t do it. So that’s what I’m hoping, that I will travel. Even if it’s just, I don’t know, even if I’m starting off in Scotland working my way through British Isles and through Europe, I want to travel and see world the world. Because there is so many different people, I wanna, you know, you can’t not want to experience different things and meet…there’s billions of people out there and I’d like to meet, I’m not going to meet them all, but from different cultures, you know, just find a, experience a little bit of other people’s cultures. So I really would love to travel.
And, for my girls, I just want my girls to be happy, that’s all I want, you know. They can, whatever makes them happy, will make me happy to be honest. I want them to be happy. I want them to have, to grow up to be good people. I hope I’ve brought them up to be good young ladies, I think they are. I just want them to be happy. That’s it. I’ve never demanded a lot of the girls, I just, as long as you’re respectful to your elders and people who are wiser than you, don’t be rude, you know. But do what you want to do as long as you’re not hurting other people doing what you want to do. I just want you to be happy.
JW: Lovely to chat Mary thank you very much.
MC: Oh, thank you.
Interviewer: Jerome Whittingham
Date: 27 September 2016
JW: First and foremost then, can you introduce yourself to the listener, your full name and your connections.
MC: Hello, my name is Mary Regina Cooper - I’m originally from St. Lucia in the Caribbean, I came to London as, about, a five-year old.
JW: Let’s sort of leap right back then, have you got any memories at all, of St. Lucia?
MC: Oh gosh, yes. I remember it was the happiest time of my life really, because I didn’t know there was another world out there.
JW: Can we put a date on it?
MC: I was born in 1958, so from 1958 till I was about five, five and a half I think, I lived in St. Lucia. Like I said it was like I didn’t realise there was another world out there, I thought this was it. I grew up with my grandmother who I thought was my mum because my mum left me in St. Lucia with her. She came to London to, with my dad, you know, when everybody was coming to England in the sixties to find work and things like that so they, I don’t know why she left me, didn’t take me with her. I didn’t know and I had a brother because when they came to London she got pregnant and had my brother. So I didn’t know I had a family until, like, oh my gosh, it would have been just out of the blue, one day my Gran said “Right, we’re going to stay with some relatives in another village and then you’re going on a ship”, and I thought, I thought, “What she talking about?”. And then in the very early hours of the morning she took me on this huge ship, never seen one before because we lived, like, in a little, it was like a rainforest area where I was brought up, and then I came to this capital, which was Castries, in St. Lucia, and she took me to the docks, there was all these huge ships, it was mind-blowing for a five-year old really, and she just took me up the stairs, put me on the boat and said “Bye, you’re going to meet your family”, and I thought “I thought you were my family”, it just came as a massive shock. I couldn’t speak English, everybody was talking around me, she just left me with these people saying, I think she said “Look after her, take care of her, because she’s going to meet her family”. And I didn’t know what they were saying to me and I got freaked-out, can you imagine, as a five-year old, freaked-out, and I started running around the ship, trying to find a way out, basically. Yeah, and then they grabbed me, two women grabbed me, I think they must have been stewards or whatever you call them, and they took me to the children’s area, like a cabin area, and they actually tied me to the cabin, to my cabin bed, because they thought I was going to jump out of the window or something. They tied me to this bed. So I was, like, traumatized, from being like the happiest time of my life, then traumatized, there were other children running around and I was tied to the bed. And I remember my Gran gave me like a gold necklace. I remember this blue plastic box, I think that’s why pale blue is my favourite colour now, she gave me this huge, blue plastic box and I opened it up and she said “It’s for your brother, it’s full of sweets and things like that”. But the kids ripped it open, took everything out because I couldn’t stop them, I was tied to the bed, one little boy ripped my gold necklace off, I think it was a St. Christopher, ripped it off me and there was nothing I could do because I was tied to this bed for about, I don’t know, it seemed like an eternity but it probably wasn’t because I was five and when you’re five it seems like an eternity, but it was probably about ten, fifteen minutes. But then gradually I got used to everything, I got used to it. I quite enjoyed my time on the ship really, it was really, really happy time once I relaxed and realised what was happening.
I really enjoyed it and then when we docked in Southampton there was these three strangers waiting for me, my mum, my dad, my brother, and I thought again, I was freaked-out again because it was just, I thought “What is going on?”, you know, but again, as a child, you get used to things quite quickly, so by the time I got home, I couldn’t speak English, so I couldn’t converse with my brother because St. Lucia was a mixture of French and English, because St. Lucia was taken over by the Dutch, the French, the English, so it was a real mixture, a patois they called it, so I could converse with my parents but not with my brother. But at that age you suck things up really quickly so I learnt to speak English in no time. I remember, maybe a couple of weeks after I arrived, I started school, I couldn’t speak much English then, but by the time, you know, I was in school I picked up the language in no time and apparently everybody said I spoke beautifully, I spoke English really well, the way it should be spoken, you know, and yeah, that was my beginnings, really, in England.
JW: Gosh, what a journey.
MC: Yes, I need to write a book, I think.
JW: You do, you do, you’re beginning the process by sharing with us. I can’t even imagine what that would feel like as a five, six-year old being, so to speak, taken away. How soon did you realise that you were not going to go back to St. Lucia?
MC: I think virtually straight away, I think by the time I got home, I think my parents told me this is where you’re living, this is … you’re not going to go back again, not going to see the person I thought was my mum. I thought “I’m never going to see her again” but as a child you kind of, you do you just adapt, I just adapted really and got on with stuff and unfortunately my grandmother she passed away before I had time to even go back, it was maybe two, three years after I was in London that she passed away, so that was quite sad because, you know, I would liked to have seen her, before that really, but I didn’t get the chance, so, yeah.
JW: So you never had any inkling really that your parents, your real mum, was over in the UK, it was never really talked about?
MC: I didn’t know, my Gran never spoke about them, I didn’t know there was an outside world out there, I just thought this was my little world, I don’t understand why I wasn’t, nobody told me what was going on, why my parents left me there and went to London, you know, and I’d be leaving St. Lucia one day to go and meet them. I was just not told anything and I don’t get that.
JW: So how did the relationships with your brother and your parents develop then?
MC: It was a, my brother and I, we sort of like, I think my brother, the first couple of weeks I think he resented the fact that he was no longer the only child. I’m not sure if he knew that I existed, I never really, that’s one thing I don’t think we ever talked about, - but we just got on and, and we are really, really, really close now, you know. He lives and works abroad, he works in the United Arab Emirates so we’ve not, we’ve not seen each other for about, oh gosh, it must be about my mother’s funeral, about ten years ago since we saw each other but we talk to each other all the time on Facebook and Messenger and that, and it’s like we’ve never left each other, we are very, very close. I mean we really liked each other as children growing up, we got on really well, you know, I liked him not just ‘cos he’s my brother, I liked him as a person, we got on really, really well. With my parents it was a bit strange, I think again, because I think my mother left me when I was about three months old so we never got that bonding that you need, you know, mother and baby, so it was really, really strained and it continued that way throughout my whole life really, you know, there was never, she was, her and my brother were very, very close, which is understandable, - but we never got that closeness and again she passed away we still were not very, very close and the same thing with my father, we just, I think because I probably was a stranger to them, to me I was a stranger and it never felt like it should do, you know what I mean? There was always, I felt as if there was always a barrier there, but they both passed away now, but yeah, never really got the opportunity to talk about stuff like that, you know, you just, as I said, as a child you just accept things and you grow up, you know, and from my teenage years - and my adulthood, you know, we just never discussed things, I don’t think people from the Caribbean, or people of Afro-Caribbean descent, I don’t think we really discuss things like we should, I don’t know why, there’s always, I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong, maybe it was just my family.
JW: Let’s find out a little bit more about your interests as a child, then. What was school life like, what sort of activities did you get involved with?
MC: I loved school, I loved everything about school, I loved it, I embraced it. I always looked forward to going to school, I hated coming home, when it was time to go home I just didn’t want to go home. I loved school, I could never understand when people say they hated school, I loved every minute of it. I got involved in, you know, loads of sports, I was really good at sports, I used to do a lot of cross-country running and distance running, I loved everything about school, I couldn’t find anything, I wasn’t very good at maths, that was the only thing that I thought “Oh gosh, I hate my maths lessons”, but apart from that I loved everything about school.
JW: So, so later teenage years, rebellious years? Were you a rebellious child?
MC: Well, no. No. My parents were very, very strict, had a very strict Catholic, Afro-Caribbean up-bringing. I think Afro-Caribbean parents tend to be really strict with their kids, especially with the girls, I think, so I was never allowed to go out with my mates and you know, do the things that you do as a teenager, go out to parties and discos and whatever, I was never allowed to do that. I had to go to school, home, school, home, school, home, that was my life really and yeah, I suppose I did resent that because my mates were always saying “Oh, you coming, should we go to see a film tonight? Should we do this, do that? And I knew I couldn’t go as if I asked my parents anyway and I knew what the answer would be, it was always “No”, so I said to my friends, look don’t bother asking, I’m not allowed, and I don’t know why my parents were like that, they were like that with my brother as well, he wasn’t really allowed to do a lot, to be honest, which was very strange because usually, you know, boys are allowed to do a little bit more, but, my parents like I said, my parents were really, really strict, they wouldn’t, it was almost as if they was afraid to let us go out and find ourselves, know what I mean?, go see the world and find who we are, it’s like they just wanted to keep us in this, I don’t know, wrapped up. I don’t know if that’s with every Afro-Caribbean family but I do know it happened in mine.
JW: How would you describe that Afro-Caribbean character, you mentioned the strictness, you said that earlier that Afro-Caribbean families don’t talk in any depth?
MC: I’m just wondering whether it was the way they were brought up and that’s all they knew, so they thought that’s the way to do it and bring the kids up that way, but, but I remember thinking in my teenage years and my early sort of twenties “Right, if ever I get children, have children, get married and that, I’m going to do the total opposite”, which I did. I’ve got three girls and, to be frank, they walk all over me, I mean, I’ve brought them up to be respectful, they know right from wrong, but I’ve always allowed them to find their feet, you know, my girls started going out like, you know, like maybe they were fourteen, fifteen, they’d go into town with their mates, things like that, go to the cinema, sleepovers, all the things that I was never allowed to do, I thought “Right, my girls are doing it!” and they did and I think I’ve got three really level-headed, very intelligent, very focussed, hardworking young ladies.
JW: Have you ever looked much further back in your family’s history?
MC: I haven’t, I would like to because, yeah, I really would but the thing because is the way, my parents, they kind of tended to just keep us to themselves, we never really saw much, I know my mother came, she had quite a large family and most of her relatives lived in Paddington in London. But we never saw them very much. It was like, I think my dad, my dad didn’t want us, I don’t know why, he just wouldn’t allow us to go and mix with the relatives and that. I think he was a very controlling man. I think he just wanted us all to himself so we never got to know her side of the family very well.
His side of the family, he’s only one of, he’s got a brother and he’d got a sister. And his brother lived near us , my uncle lived near us and he had kids so they were like the only family we knew so me and my brother played with my three cousins because they lived down the road so they were only, they were like the only part of the family that we saw and conversed with, you know, they came to our house for dinner, we went to theirs for dinner but it was my mother’s side of the family that he seem to keep us away from them and I don’t know why. And I think, I think my mother wasn’t very happy about that because whenever they had an argument or fell out, first place she’d go to was Paddington to be with her relatives, I think she felt safe with them but my father use to drive to Paddington and bring her back, do you know what I mean but I think, you know, I think she resented that, that he wouldn’t allow us to mix with her side of the family and I don’t know why. I never asked it was just accepted things as they were you know what I mean.
JW: Yes, yeah. But how about much, much, much further back in a century or so. Have can do these sort of genetic tests these days can’t you where you can have, have your genes mapped to see what part of the world you come from.
MC: I would love to do that because I just don’t know what part, where my ancestor lie but I do remember my Gran she was, because my girls are mixed race and they remind me of her especially my middle daughter because she was, my Gran was tall, really long limbed, she used to wear her hair in a long plait down here and she was very olive skinned and my girls are, so I’m thinking is there some sort of like Asian or Mediterranean blood in me somewhere because my girls, nobody believed that they’re mixed race, they just assume that they are from like Thailand or you know they’ve got you know some Asian blood in them because they look Asian. Great big brown eyes, long dark brown hair, they’ve got that olive skin, tall and slim so there must be some Asian blood or something somewhere along the line, there has to be, really, yeah not just Afro-Caribbean there has to be some Asian in there somewhere.
JW: what sort of questions have your girls put to you about sort of family?
MC: I mean they have asked, I mean they do say, you know, how come we’re the colour that we are and I say it’s because my Gran was the same colour as you – they don’t really know my side of the family really because I don’t know my side of the family so they only know my brother, they don’t know anybody else because you know, when I said , if I went back, because I’ve never been to St Lucia, I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for my family because we never kept in touch, parent, so I wouldn’t know where to begin to search my ancestry to be honest with you.
JW: Did you ever chat with your Gran about – sort of ambitions and dreams for your future?
MC: No because like I said I was only like, you know small. I was 5 years old so I never went to school, the first time I went to school was when I came to London so, no, I just, I never thought about the future. I don’t think you do at that, I know some children know from the moment they’re born they know what they wanna be because my, my eldest daughter she knew what she wanted to be when she was like about that high, I wanna be a performer, she is now but you know, I, no I didn’t, I just lived from day to day, I didn’t think about the future, I didn’t know there was a future out there, if you see what I mean.
JW: What were your parent’s expectations and ambitions for you?
MC: I think my parents, you know they wanted me to work hard at school which I did, you know, I think they wanted me to just do well and find a good job and, maybe get married and settle down. I think, you know, they didn’t want me and my brother to hang out on street corners and not do anything with our lives. They always wanted us to, education was always very important in my house. Like I said it was school and back, school and back, homework, do you know what I mean. School reports are very important they read them, you know, made sure that we were doing what we were meant to be doing at school. So yeah, education was really, really, really important to my parents. Because maybe they didn’t have much of an education, education themselves so I don’t, because my parents I remember they, they couldn’t really read and write properly. They could just about so my brother and I used to like if they got letters we used to read the letters and say what it was about. If the letters came from wherever, you know we used to say, oh it’s from the bank or you know, or wherever it was from. You know we used to read it to them and if they wanted to write letters like, I remember, you know if they wanted to write letters to send to St Lucia they wrote the letters for them. Do you know what I mean. Yeah so education was very important to them.
JW: So how, how come you ended up in Hull?
MC: Like I said, I met my husband at the, he like I said he’s from Hull, came to London, we happened to be working in the same place and he asked me if I wanted to come to Hull with him and I went – alright . I’d near even heard of Hull at the time. I went yeah okay and I’ve been here ever since. I’ve been here since 1985 so I’ve lived in Hull much longer than I lived in London really. – yeah 1985 I came to Hull and settled here but unfortunately we are no longer together but I mean, well we’re ok, we speak and everything but when you’ve got children together, you’ve got to keep it friendly haven’t you.
JW: So what did you think about Hull when you arrived here?
MC: Me I was shocked because London is so busy, so fast, cars everywhere. When I first came to Hull in ’85 there were hardly, the first thing I said to him was where’s all the traffic? He goes that’s it, you know that seeing the traffic now when I first arrived I’m thinking it’s just like London but at the time it wasn’t, it really shocked me. It was hardly any traffic. I remember that I’m thinking this is awful, where’d the cars, where’s the traffic because that’s it, this is what people, you know that obviously people are more affluent now I guess and everybody’s got cars now the traffic is no different than it is in London now.
JW: And what about changes you’ve noticed in Hull and the surrounding area over, over the years?
MC: I’ve noticed that you know when I first arrived there wasn’t many Black faces in Hull to be honest but I guess since the university opened and everything you get more Black people in Hull but at the time – I think I was lucky if I saw maybe one or two in a week.
JW: How did that make you feel?
MC: I was alright about it really because when I arrive in Hull everybody was so friendly. His side of the family when I first met them and people in the street. People, I just thought that people were, really, really friendly. Much more friendlier than they are in London. I mean in London everybody is rushing to get from A to B. nobody has got the time of day for you. Nobody smiles, says ‘Hello’. I mean we lived in the same house and – we hardly knew our neighbours, you know what I mean. Nobody would speak to each other in London really but Hull everybody, you stand at a bus stop, everybody says ‘Hi, how are you doing’ and in London if you try and say hello to anybody at a bus stop they’d think you’re a freak do you know what I mean. But no I just found Hull really, really inviting and it was so chilled out, so relaxed I just find the pace of life in Hull compared to the pace of life in, no I’d never live in London again, never. It’s just, when I used to go to visit when my parents were alive, we’d visit , I used to think, “Oh God, let me just get back to Hull please, I need to get back to Hull for the peace and quiet and tranquillity of Hull”, you know, I love it in Hull, you know seeing, you know the BBC building coming up and everything that’s happening in Hull at the moment, it’s just, it’s just wonderful, it’s you know I’m thinking it’s, it’s much more cosmopolitan than it is, I mean like Prince’s Avenue and Newland Avenue, it’s like being abroad sometimes, you know it’s all the coffee bars and everything. I just love it. I think that Hull is, when, when I hear people slagging Hull off, I think, “No”, I love it in Hull absolutely love living in Hull. Seriously.
JW: Do your daughters have the same feeling?
MC: My eldest she’s real Hull girl. She, she’ll never move out of Hull. She was in Pop Idol when she was 16. She did really well in Pop Idol so she had to stay in London while she was in it and she hated it. She was so homesick. She couldn’t wait to get back. But my middle daughter and the youngest, I think the youngest she’ll eventually she wants to live in Florida and I think my middle daughter might want to live abroad because her and her boyfriend were talking about going to Canada so those two possibly would, will leave Hull but my eldest, no, she’s a real Hull girl, yeah she won’t leave Hull, yeah she’s got, she’s just had a child and she’s got a partner and her child so there’s no way she’s going to leave Hull, no.
JW: I find it interesting that young people in particular - seem to, seem to feel - or describe themselves as being from a wider geography. So, you know my, my two, I’ve got two teenage boys, they’ve travelled much more widely than me…
MC: Right, yeah.
JW: …then their sort of younger generations, don’t seem to have recognise boundaries quite as much.
MC: Yeah absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I’ve always encouraged my girls, you know, I said “look, Hull is just one part of the world, there’s a huge world out there, you need to go and see the world, travel.” And that’s my one regret really, that I didn’t travel. I’ve always wanted to, but just never the opportunity, the means, and then I met my husband, and then we had children, and then I had work, you know, and things get in the way. Life gets in the way and I never travel.
I still want to though. I’m still intending to travel now that the girls have grown up and everything. I’m determined to travel. So I’m always saying to my girls, “You need to travel, just, don’t just stay in Hull, there’s a huge world out there.” But like I said my eldest, nah she’s not. I mean she has travelled, she has gone, you know, abroad. She’s been to several counties. My two younger ones, they’re definitely gonna go traveling, yeah.
JW: Have any of them been back to St Lucia?
MC: No, none of us - have been back to St Lucia but I’d love one day to take the girls to St Lucia, just to show them, you know, where I was from, because they for…you know, they quite often say to me, “You came from St Lucia, it’s such a beautiful place, what are you doing here?” I said, “Well, you know, I had no choice at the time, I had to come to London.” But yeah, I would love to take them. We talk about it all the time to be honest, to go back. I just want them to see where I was from. Yeah I think it important for them to get to know their roots really. -
JW: - So what your career been? What have you been involved with work wise, a whole mixture or?
MC: I’ve done all sorts really. I’ve done cleaning. I’ve worked in shops. I’ve done one week in a factory, which I thought I was gonna die, it was the worst thing ever. But when you need money, you know, you’d do any job, just to keep the roof over your head, but never again. I really admire people who work in factories and stay in factories because, I just don’t think they’re treated right to be honest, you know what I mean. So yeah shop work, factory work, I’ve worked behind bars, I’ve done lots of admin work, and I’m doing admin at the moment, you know, can’t stand it, but again, you know, you’ve got to pay your bills haven’t you?
JW: Yeah, and you’re quite connected with the cultural scene in Hull, the art scene?
MC: Absolutely, I mean, when I first arrived in Hull, I joined - Hull Truck when they had- the new theatre, and I’ve done several productions, I can’t remember it now, it was a long time ago. I’ve done productions at Hull Truck, with Hull Truck – Lynne Taylor, I did a one woman show for her, again that was years ago. She wrote a one woman play, asked me to do it - and I’ve done some stuff with Mike, you know, since the last time I’ve done any work - productions, that was the last one I did, for Mike, that Derby Day, yeah. I mean but, if I, my ideal world, is to work, because I did a media degree, broadcast media, you know, basically behind the scenes really. I would love to get a job working behind the scenes, either in television or film, you know, I mean, I’m, don’t particularly want to be in front of the camera, I mean I don’t know maybe, I mean, I’ve always been interested in - investigative journalism and I wish that’s what I’d done instead rather than, you know, just a broadcast media. It didn’t touch journalism really, because I love documentaries. I love, watching, you know, anything, you know, documentaries about, you know, what’s happening outside in the world and that. So I would have loved to have gone that way. You know.
JW: What aspects would you want to investigate yourself?
MC: - I’m quite fascinated about the homeless, what happening with the homeless, you know, I would love to do that, and - prostitution as well, you know, the young ladies who work on the streets. I’d really love to get to know how they got onto the streets, why? You know what I mean. Same with the homeless, I think, how did you get to that position? Surely you’ve got family and friends who could have taken you in? You know what I mean. I could never understand how people become homeless. I’d love to get into that, you know, what brought them onto the streets, why didn’t they look for help, maybe they didn’t want help, I don’t know, maybe they haven’t got family? I don’t know but it does fascinate me as to how they become homeless, so yeah.
JW: What are your thoughts about freedom, living in Wilberforce’s city? What are your thoughts about freedom?
MC: As in...sorry?
JW: Well I mean, you’ve mentioned that if you’re an investigative journalism, journalist, you’d like to look at prostitution, so those - girls, and how there is, sort of, slaved, enslaved really.
MC: Oh absolutely, I mean, for, you know, because we’ve got, you know, Wilberforce is in Hull, it’s all about, you know, freedom and emancipation, but you think, why is it still going on? You know what I mean? You’d think, a city like Hull, it’d be…maybe I don’t know. It might be hard for the ‘powers that be’ to get people off the streets, to get people homes and get the girls off the streets, young ladies off the street. But it just seems a shame that, you know, the home of emancipation and freedom, and there is still people who are.
There is still slavery going on all over the world in the twenty-first century. You know, you’ve got the sex trade, you’ve got what’s happening at the moment with the boat people, you know these people risking their lives, their babies and children’s lives, you know, they’re trying to find a better world for themselves. You know, and you think in the twenty-first century this should not be happening. It shouldn’t be happening. Why are the ‘powers that be’ allowing this to happen, with everything that’s happening in Syria and when we, last year we saw all those people trekking through all kind of weathers with their babies in their arms trying to get away from war torn countries, risking their lives and I’m thinking, this is the twenty-first century. This should not be happening. It’s almost like biblical times. I was watching these people trekking down these train lines. It reminded me of, you know, Exodus when the Israelites were leaving Egypt, and I’m thinking, this can’t be happening, you know, but, but what do you do about it, I just don’t know. I mean, okay I give to certain charities and that but I think, what good, are they really receiving they money that I’ve sent, do you what I mean, to get them blankets and, blankets and shoes and coats and I’m thinking, I hope my donation is getting through to these people. But it is, it’s like biblical times and it shouldn’t be happening, really.
JW: What do you think your life would be like if you’d never left St Lucia?
MC: I have no idea, I don’t know. I’m hoping I would have gone to school eventually, because I enjoy learning. So I’m hoping I would have gone to school. I have no idea. I mean, I don’t know. I might, because I’ve always been interested in caring as well, so maybe I might have been ended up as a nurse, something like that, or a teacher, I’m not sure. But, I’ve no idea to be honest, no idea. I’ve not really given it a lot of thought. What would I have, what type of person, I’m hoping I’d have still been who I am, the person, do you know’ I mean, the essence of who I am now. I’m hoping, because who you are is who you are, no matter where you live, or what century, even if I was born in Tudor times, I’m still hoping that I’d still be Mary, do you know what I’m saying. Do you understand where I’m coming from? So I don’t know. I don’t know. I probably would have been in some kind of caring profession I reckon, probably a nurse, yeah.
JW: What are your hopes for your future, for yourself and for your family?
MC: Well, for myself like I said, I’m hoping, because I’m getting on a bit, so I’m hoping to travel, that’s what I want to do, I want to see the world before I die, I really do. I don’t want to be on my deathbed and thinking, “Oh Mary you didn’t travel, you didn’t go see the world, you wanted to do this, you wanted to see this and you didn’t do it. So that’s what I’m hoping, that I will travel. Even if it’s just, I don’t know, even if I’m starting off in Scotland working my way through British Isles and through Europe, I want to travel and see world the world. Because there is so many different people, I wanna, you know, you can’t not want to experience different things and meet…there’s billions of people out there and I’d like to meet, I’m not going to meet them all, but from different cultures, you know, just find a, experience a little bit of other people’s cultures. So I really would love to travel.
And, for my girls, I just want my girls to be happy, that’s all I want, you know. They can, whatever makes them happy, will make me happy to be honest. I want them to be happy. I want them to have, to grow up to be good people. I hope I’ve brought them up to be good young ladies, I think they are. I just want them to be happy. That’s it. I’ve never demanded a lot of the girls, I just, as long as you’re respectful to your elders and people who are wiser than you, don’t be rude, you know. But do what you want to do as long as you’re not hurting other people doing what you want to do. I just want you to be happy.
JW: Lovely to chat Mary thank you very much.
MC: Oh, thank you.